Kaya Korean Traditional Bow

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
Hi everybody! :)

For various reasons, in the last 6 months or so I have moved away from shooting Recurve that I have for the last 4-5 years and have moved full time to traditional archery for the sheer enjoyment and simplicity of it. I have always shot Eastern bows on the side so have embraced the style full time. There is an active group at Pentref Bowmen that shoot Asiatic style Eastern bows, and we have been playing around with different styles and I have been shooting with a thumb ring for about 3 months now. Adapting to the new draw, I have moved into the Korean form of shooting, with the long draw length and low anchor.

I was using a Grozer TRH Crimean Tartar bow for this but the draw length on it was limited, and it was not really suited to the style so after trying my friend's Hwarang bow, I decided to order one of the Kaya KTB bows as they are very similar in style. I ordered it from Ten Ring Archery and the service was fantastic in getting it to me next day so I could debut it at the club ( i'm impatient!:raspberry )

Initial impressions of the bow was that more care could have been taken in the manufacture of it. There are a couple of areas on the leather covering where glue has seeped onto it, and a big thumb print in glue on the top limb. This should come off with a light rubbing of some abrasive but I haven't done this yet. The handle however was pretty poor. The leather cut to cover it was crooked edged and not the right size, and there were a lot of glue marks. The leather arrow pass was also poory fitted. This can be seen in the below pictures.






I wasn't especially fond of the paisley patterned leather in the pictures but in the flesh, it is a lot more subdued and not as garish as some flash photos make out and it has actually grown on me now!

While the look of it may have been a little dissapointing, the proof is in the pudding, or the shooting :) So cosmetics aside, how did it perform? The draw is fantastically smooth with very little stack, even right back at 32" or so where I settle. It could easily draw another inch or so.



The loose was a very interesting experience.. my god this bow is fast! This one is 40# @ 31" and the arrows leap out of it like greased lightning! Even shot with fingers it is quick but with the thumb ring the loose is incredibly fast. I am using 34" bamboo arrows spined 35-40lb with 100gn points and they come out dead straight, with no bad contact or hitting on the bow. There is literally no handshock at all compared to my other eastern bows due to the small siyah's on this bow. Instead of large wooden levers such as on my Kassai Deer Hunnish bow, they are very small rigid sections with just enough wood that is required to stiffing the limb tips, eliminating the jolting aftershock as they settle.

Having shot recurve and anchoring to the chin for the last 4-5 years, the strangest part of shooting this style is getting a consistent anchor drawn back as far as it goes but I have settled into a nice repetitive cycle now, getting the string against my cheek and I can feel it in the same place each time. I am starting to get nice regular groups and its coming together nicely.

The Korean traditional form usually entails a very high draw, so I have incorporated this but brought it down a lot lower so it is still 'raised' but low enough to be considered safe. I have had this checked with experienced judges and they say I am fine, competitive Recurve shooters often draw higher :)

Here is a quick video of me shooting the KTB to show the speed, shooting style and long draw. Fate was kind and the first arrow was smack in the X!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nedFbg7WeV0]YouTube - Shooting The Kaya KTB.MOV[/ame]


After trying it out the first time I set about improving it somewhat, and replaced the leather arrowpass with a suede wrap that goes all the way around, and used a velvety feel cord to make a bound grip that is far more comfortable to shoot, and looks lovely to boot!



So there you have it. The KTB is a fantastic bow to shoot off fingers but it is exceptionally fun and rewarding to shoot with a thumb ring and drawn right back where it is designed to be shot. Cosmetically it could be better but at the end of the day you get what you pay for. It is ?125 and not the ?350 of the Hwarang or other similar bows. If you are prepared to do a little work on the looks ( or I may have just got a bad one! ) you will get a fantastic little bow for your money and you won't be dissapointed!
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Thanks for posting Neil - I really like the way you have adapted the Korean Traditional shooting style. Looking very good well done. I shall strive to emulate!
 

leteus

New member
Re-Kaya Korean Traditional Bow

Having received some very helpful and kind information and pointers from "Dorset Lass", I'm eagerly awaiting delivery of a 40# KTB, especially so, having just read Neils comments on the finish of the bow.

However I would be interested to have some information with regards to nock point position on the string, especially after reading this on the greatree archery site, which for a Mediterranean release user is a little confusing........."Find the centre of the bow string. Measure 2.5" up. At that point wind with dental floss or thin serving material upward approx 1/2", 2 layers deep or to fit the arrow nocks snugly (you will be nocking your arrow on the serving material) then tie off. These bows require a higher than normal nock point.".........although I assume that this set up is purely for a thumb release.

I have also read that the nock point should be about 1/4" higher than for recurve!

Another thing that I can't find any definitive info on is brace height, again I have read 5 1/2" and 6 3/4" which is correct or perhaps neither!

I would like to eventually (sooner rather than later) like to try to use a Thumb ring.

Dorset Lass I believe uses 45/50# spine arrows on a 35# bow and this bears out the suppliers comment of going stiffer by 10# ish for this type of bow, yet interestingly Neil is using 35/40# on his 40# KTB.......is this because of a thumb release or maybe release style........all a little confusing.:wide-eyed
I do have some 35/40# woods and will try those initially and see what the outcome is.

I do seem to enjoy shooting my KG Osprey and hopefully the KTB without all the hassle and regiment of putting bows together, adding buttons, clickers, sights and stabilisers etc. which for me was taking out of archery the reasons that I started in the first place............... enjoyment, pleasure and relaxation.
 

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
Good evening!

You are right about the nocking point, it is rather higher than usual for shooting in this style. I found the ideal point on my Kaya to be approx 5/8" above square! The arrow looks to be pointing downwards severely when nocked, but drawn back it goes into line and leaves the bow beautifully. The bracing height of this bow as I have it set up is only 5 1/2". It looks ridiculously low but there is no problem with contact at all.

Arrow spine is something I have had to tinker with since changing to thumb ring style. This may be completely different to other peoples findings, or down to form etc but what I have found is that I have had to go significantly weaker in spine for them to fly true when using the thumb ring. These findings were primarily with the Crimean Tartar bow.


What I found was that my normal arrows, spined 40-45 for use with the 40lb Hun and Crimean bow's, were coming out of the Crimean as stiff as a board and hitting WAY over to the right when shot with a ring. they were acting as much as 10-15lb too stiff. Shot with a 3 fingered release, they fly fine. I put this down to the fact that with a thumb ring, there is far less 'meat' to get out of the way of the string, and so significantly less paradox is introduced into the arrow, making it act stiff. To get it to fly in a similar fashion, I would have to weaken slightly to allow the arrow to bend a bit more and return to normal.

I put this into practice with some 30-35lb 100gn point arrows and while they were a bit too weak, the arrow flight was far straighter. As they were a bit on the whippy side however, when I went for bamboo shafts I got them in 35-40lb spine and they fly very well indeed.

The Kaya is a world apart in cast and speed compared to the Crimean, and I believe that would explain why Dorset Lass is having good results with arrows that are spined higher than the bows poundage, due to its sheer speed. I wonder if you will have the same findings when you shoot with a thumb ring, and those arrows will come out stiff? It will be interesting to see if you see the same behaviour!
 

leteus

New member
Re-Kaya Korean Traditional Bow

when I went for bamboo shafts I got them in 35-40lb spine and they fly very well indeed.
Hello
Thanks for your posted reply, it will help no end having your comments and input.

Ummm........where on earth did you get Bamboo arrows in the UK?
 

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
Through Mark Hill. he buys them in bulk, sorts accurately by spine and resells by the dozen via ebay. if you search ebay for bamboo arrow shafts, they come up top for 1 or 2 dozen, 33" long.

I had 2 dozen off him for ?41 posted. Though the spines are very accurately sorted, there is a fair bit of weight variance but the 2 dozen split into a clear heavy dozen and a lighter dozen, so a friend and I split them with me getting the lighter as my bow is a lighter weight. That said mind you, i've made 8 of them up and there is only a 15 grain or so spread between them. Diameters were nice and consistent, 9/32 nocks and 11/32 paralell points with a 5/16 internal diameter went on them snug.

Bamboo arrows are tough as nails. I totally fluffed up a shot and put the arrow from the 40lb kaya directly into the wooden frame of a target from only 7m away ( aiming at top face on bunny field targets ) and it just went *thunk*. No whipping around or snapping as I expected. It was an absolute bugger to dig out as it went in the full length of the pile, but dug it out and it was still perfect! never going to back to woods again, bamboo is beautiful to shoot with.
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Reading this thread has made me keen to try some more flexible arrows. Up until now I have just doggedly stuck with the same wooden arrow spines that I was recommended by Quicks, although I did try my 1816 Jazz arrows once and they went everywhere so I went back to my 5/16, 45/50 woodies.

I wanted to ask Neil - what sort of distance are you shooting with the Kaya at the moment? I wonder whether you need stiffer arrows at longer distances/field.

My brace height is also 5.5 inches and it seems fine. I have my nocking point at 3/4 inch above square but then I am anchoring higher than Neil and have been using a Mediterranean release.

Now everything is in flux because I am changing to a thumb release and using my Kaya for horseback archery, whilst moving over to my bio composite Scythian bow for field.
 
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Si2

New member
my bio composite Scythian bow for field.
I'd be very interested to hear what you think about that one...!

Regarding distance, I am shooting up to 100 yards with a 35lb Samick SKB. I'm even getting a few on!

I use 30lb spine arrows (bought as 35-40 but they come out low) with 4 inch fletchings for short distance and 2.5 for long. The arrow flight to 100 yards is very smooth.

At 100 yards the target is behind my hand, so it's tricky to get an accurate shot.

I've also tried some tiny 1/4 inch shafts with 20 grain piles and 2 inch fletchings. These fly nicely to 80 yards, I've not done 100 with them yet.

Neil
Interesting review, many thanks for posting
 

leteus

New member
Well, the Kaya KTB arrived this morning, having ordered it from Quicks late on Weds this week.

The bow looks fine and the only thing I can find with the finish is where the leather facing on the limbs wraps around onto the belly side. Where the leather has been trimmed there is in places knife cuts into the face where someone has had a couple of goes at trimming it straight and missed (although I haven't looked closely I suspect that there will be knife cuts along all of the leather edges. I think that I might copy Neils' addition to the grip as I have fairly large mitts and the grip feels a little slender.

Tried stringing it several times to get a feel for doing that (is a cup of hot chocolate and a lay down mandatory after the stringing).!

Because I will shoot off my fingers initially I've replaced the centre serving to stop the unravelling that some have had and also lengthened the bottom by about 1.5" to allow for lower 2 fingers. Also used a thinner serving material as it was a bit tight on the arrow nocks.

Am going to the field tomorrow to try the bow with my 35/40# woods and see how they fly.

Like Neil and Dorset Lass the brace height (with the string untwisted) is 5.5" (string to belly). I'll put a few twists in as shooting with an untwisted string will parachute....won't it!

One thing that puzzles me a little is.........if the string is FF why is it 22 strand (that's a breaking strain of 2090# and even allowing for about 40% strength loss for end servings still gives you 1254# or about 30:1 safety margin) and must make for a slower bow with it going on for a 3mm dia, unless there is a logical reason for for doing so i.e. short bow length, stiff limb tips etc.

I've initially set the nock point (bit of masking tape) at 15mm above square and see how that goes on.

As I can't be bothered to hump targets about I'll be shooting at either 40 or 50 yds which is what I'll have set up for my Osprey, I'll be interested to see how RED my face gets not being able to hit the target with the KTB....It will of course be the bows fault not mine:snooty:
 

leteus

New member
Have fun Leteus! I hope that you will feel able to share your report on here!
Fun, yes but not as I hoped for..............Our field was absolutely waterlogged this morning so I didn't even attempt to put up a target........However not wanting to just turn around and go home I strung the bow walked to the beginning of the field and shot the KTB just to get a feel for it. How does it feel........certainly different to anything else I have shot. I did find the handle a little small so will do as I said previously follow Neils additional padding alteration. Now the jaw dropping bit............out of the 30 odd arrows I shot and the 2000yds walked retrieving them (35/40# woods 3" feathers at 30 1/2" draw, back of the bullet point level with the handle back) with a bit of fishtailing ALL of the arrows went over 200yds, with 1 reaching 227yds with a slight tail wind......in fact had that particular arrow gone another 6/8ft it would have disappeared into the trees. If your wondering about the distance, I used the target distance markers and a carefully measured and hopefully a consistent stride.

PS..............according to Google's map of the field and the measuring tool the distance is 241yds!!!!

Now I can't wait for the next dry day:eek:ptimist: and a target to shoot at!
 

Yew Selfbow

Active member
Excellent review Neil ... objective fair, and informative ... how about reviewing some of your other Asiatic bows ?... cheers
 

ChakaZulu

New member
I also like this bow, having shot it a couple of times at Quicks. It's fantastically fast. The only bow I've shot to rival its feeling of speed is my 50# Border Griffon, which cost more than three times what the Kaya cost, so it damned well ought to feel fast (love my Border...). That said, the lightest Kaya I tried (30#?) didn't have anything like the feeling of power that the heavier bows did. They all feel lighter than the marked weight, so I'd suggest trying at least a 35#.

The one issue I had with this bow (apart from the serving, which unravelled when I was shooting!) is that it is too light in the hand for my taste. It is hardly there at all, which some people love (I know Dorset Lass does) but I was uncomfortably with. Add its short length and I found it a bit twitchy after getting used to the Griffon and the Grozer Old Scythian. This is exarcerbated by the sheer power of the Kaya, which gives it a little extra kick.

I was sorely tempted by this bow, and were I shooting on foot I'd have got it. For horseback I decided I didn't need the range as the longest shots are about 50m and for my main disciplines you're shooting maybe 5-15yds or 20ft (vertically!). I don't need the power, so I went for the Grozer, which is more comfortable and more stable. If you aren't planning to shoot from horseback then I would recommend this bow. But then, if you aren't planning to shoot from horseback then you should be!


I'm also going to hijack this thread and shamelessly promote my quest for statistics in our new round, designed especially for horsebow:
http://www.archery-interchange.net/f13/horsebow-archers-new-round-32409/
 

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
Hi everybody!

Just a little bit more information for anybody interested in shooting a Kaya KTB. We have had our Christmas fun shoot @ Pentref Bowmen which my friend ~HUN~ and I set up, and for the final challenging shot, we set up a target as far away as the lay of the land lets us at our club. This was a 78m shot across the practice field, across a hill and stream, into trees with a large net set up, and one 80cm field target.



We had many people attempting it, and all having a fantastic time watching the arrows fly and the thing that nobody could get over was the sheer speed and flat trajectory of the Korean style bows. HUN was shooting his Hwarang bow, and I was using the KTB and I kid you not, we had 50lb longbows and traditonal recurves aiming up and arching shots to get there, and with my 35lb Kaya i was aiming with the tip of my thumb level with the gold, the point still on the target, near the top of the boss and they were getting there at perfect height. For those who aim using the point, i expect this 35lb KTB would be point on at about 70m. The arrows in question are approximately 400gn 34" bamboo's. It can be explained by the very low anchor point, and the sheer draw length but the efficiency of the bow and style is mind blowing in practice.

That said, I decided to take the Kaya to the bowscale and see what kind of draw weight I was actually getting out of it, to achieve such an incredible cast. It is marked as 35lb @ 28", 40lb @30. On the scales, it was showing 36lb @ 28" so close enough, but I draw this bow to 32" ( dont worry! they are tillered to be shot as far back as 34!!! ) and at that length, the scales show 47lb. Even though there is such a dramatic increase in weight as it reaches its limits it isn't a problem, its very comfortable to shoot and the Korean draw and thumb loose has now become second nature, i can't see me ever shooting fingers again... I haven't even taken my competitive recurve out of its box in 4 months, literally!



ChakaZulu, I love your comment that if you arent planning to shoot form horseback, you should be! I intend to give it a try this coming year and would love to meet up with some of the horsebow archers on here and see what its really like. I have never ridden a horse before so that would be the hardest part, but from Dorset Lass' comments it sounds like they are exceptional and would be able to cater for a newbie like me :)
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Great to continue to hear such good reports of this bow! I wonder - what were the main differences (if any) between your Kaya and the Hwarang? I have had my eye on a Hwarang for a long time but decided to go for a biocomposite Grozer instead. Still love my Kaya KTB though.
 

ChakaZulu

New member
V: I tried going back to mediterranean a couple of weeks ago. Missed the boss at 10yds!
Not having ridden before isn't a problem really, at least as far as the BHAA are concerned. There are those who say that you should be able to ride well before trying to shoot from horseback but we don't subscribe to that view. You won't be gallopping any time soon, I wouldn't have thought, but assuming you can sit on a horse without falling off (i.e. you are not prone to randomly falling off your chair at dinner time...) you'll be fine at walk and trot. Then you can learn to canter and gallop.
 

eym

New member
Choosing a KTB : what criterions ?

[...]
I draw this bow to 32" ( dont worry! they are tillered to be shot as far back as 34!!! )
[...]
Hello V., Hi everybody,

I'm wondering whether 34 inches are enough to perform the "very long draw"
(as do some Koreans : see for instance front image in goongdo.com )

I suppose that the maximum draw of the bow must match the archer's arm length.

What would be the criterions for choosing the rigth KTB and arrows, in order to use the "very long draw" ?

(For the japanese traditional archery, there seem to exist simple criterions : see for instance kyudo.com - bows and kuydo.com - arrows )
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Hi all
I tried shooting clout for the first time with my 35lb Kaya KTB yesterday. I was impressed that after a few sighters I could easily reach 130yds and some arrows went beyond this. Accuracy was not brilliant I have to admit, but some went into the circle and no arrows strayed off the shooting field into the adjacent (empty) field so that was a bonus. This was using wooden arrows with fluffies on that I use for field so that would have added a considerable amount of drag I bet. I would like to try it again without the fluffies and also maybe with using a thumb loose.
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Hello V., Hi everybody,

I'm wondering whether 34 inches are enough to perform the "very long draw"
(as do some Koreans : see for instance front image in goongdo.com )

I suppose that the maximum draw of the bow must match the archer's arm length.

What would be the criterions for choosing the rigth KTB and arrows, in order to use the "very long draw" ?

(For the japanese traditional archery, there seem to exist simple criterions : see for instance kyudo.com - bows and kuydo.com - arrows )
Hi eym I am probably not the best placed person to answer your questions but I do believe that the Kaya is designed to be used with the long draw length that is used in Traditional Korean Archery. Having played about with mediterranean and thumb loose I am convinced that these bows are really best suited to a thumb loose and therefore if you are wanting to go down the long Korean draw route then I reckon you would need to get to grips with the thumb loose.

Others on here are far more experienced with using the thumb loose but I do think that if you are looking to start using one you would be best to get a Kaya KTB that is a little lighter than your normal bow as that would be better to learn the thumb loose.
 

eym

New member
[...] you would need to get to grips with the thumb loose [...]

Hi Dorset Lass, thank you for your answer,
Hi all,

I've already used the "thumb release" (with long rudimentary primitive selfbows !), learning from youtube channels (mainly ymjang007, or adyona, turkisharchery, ...).

I've begun learning occidental archery (recurve bow, mediterranean release, ...) last october in a club. But I prefer the "thumb release". And it seems to me more interesting to perform with a bow that allows the Korean "very long draw" (far past the ear). To allow that, the bow must fit the archer's arm length.

The question is "how does one choose a KTB that fits one's arm length ?" Or "will I be able to perform the "very long draw" with the standard KTB or do I need to look for a longer KTB ?"
 
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