Wild Shots

Max

New member
OK ? here?s one for you compound experts out there. I converted to compound from Recurve in December and have been doing OK. Groups getting better and loving it. Now in creeps a very strange phenomena which is crippling me and is getting worse ? much worse. What I get is a totally uncontrolled wild release ? so bad that I miss the boss completely at 20 yards. It is like a punch or a flinch, but is totally unstoppable and very violent. The only way I can describe it is like the nerve reflex you sometimes get in bed when suddenly your whole leg jerks in spasm. I have tried various release aids, to no avail, even stiffening the trigger and taking the trigger knob off completely.

I can?t ascribe this to target panic, (whatever that is) ? I have no problem aiming or settling on the gold and can start the release motor running just fine ? but every so often it is like being hit hard between the shoulders ? a total surprise - I seem to have yanked the bow off my face and blown a shot wild.

Now, I don?t think I am letting the draw arm creep forward, I am putting tension into the shot by push/pull so I don?t think I am relaxing too much and the cams are snatching the sting. Is it possible this could be a totally subconscious trigger reflex and if so how do I fix it? The shots are so wild I dare not shoot at home, which rules out daily practice of any kind.

Is this a common reflex? Is it a kind of target panic, or is it something else? Anyone experienced anything similar?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Max,
I think I had exactly the same problem you have described and at the same stage in my archery(a few months after changing from recurve to compound)
As you may know, I am in rehab for target Panic so I perhaps can lessen some of your anxieties.
Your problem happens when all is going well(apparently ) and sometimes there is a big flinch. I used to get high right arrows when it happened.
If we are talking the same symptoms here, then try this. Close range (5m)
get settled at full draw, on aim too, with the finger/thumb behind the trigger so it can't go off. Keep the finger/thumb behind the trigger but give the release aid body a sudden squeeze with the hand. Note what happens. Repeat a few more times and note what happens.Afterwards, send me a PM describing your findings. I'm being secretive on purpose, you'll see why after the PM arrives with me. I'll reply as soon as I can. I think you are in for a surprise; you'll shoot better after this is resolved, than you did before it started to take over.
All the best for now.
Geoff
 
  • Like
Reactions: Max

Max

New member
geoffretired said:
) Keep the finger/thumb behind the trigger but give the release aid body a sudden squeeze with the hand. Note what happens. Repeat a few more times and note what happens.Afterwards, send me a PM describing your findings. I'm being secretive on purpose, you'll see why after the PM arrives with me. I'll reply as soon as I can. I think you are in for a surprise; you'll shoot better after this is resolved, than you did before it started to take over.
All the best for now.
Geoff
Thanks Geoff - will do. Hopefully, I can try this out early next week - I will PM you with the results - let's hope we are on to something. Either that or I am going crazy!

Cheers
Max
 

greydog

New member
Sounds like you're anticipating the shot, but I'll wait and see what geoff has to say from your feedback ;)
 

Max

New member
greydog said:
Sounds like you're anticipating the shot, but I'll wait and see what geoff has to say from your feedback ;)
Yes - a bit of that (probably a lot!). Geoff has been a fantastic help on this - when I tried squeezing the release handle hard while aiming, I caught myself coming off the back stops just a little. Probably some instictive reaction from recurve shooting, where you pull through but relax the fingers to loose the string. The interesting thing was that to try this, I used my spare bow, which is a Hoyt Ultramag - it was handy at the time. This is the same basic specification as my Pro Elite (same limbs, same cams, draw weight and draw length), apart from the slightly longer axle length on the Pro.

I had no problems executing the shots with the Ultramag, although lack of back tension at the moment of release was probably a major weakness in my shot. However, when I tried the same experiment with the Pro Elite immediately after shooting the other bow, it was obvious there was something very odd about the let off and the valley. The valley was virtually non existent, and even a slight relaxation would allow the bow to snatch forward violently. Clearly my technique was being severely punished by the Pro Elite - the question was why?

I bought the Pro Elite second hand and had it re strung and re cabled. At the time it was noted that the lower draw length limit on the cams was 28" - probably just a little too long for me, as I was using a wrist release at the time. As part of the re cabling, some tricks were played with the cables to shorten the draw length slightly. This may possibly be the reason for the very short valley on the bow, or it may simply be the bow itself.

In the hands of an experienced shooter, it would never be a problem, but for a beginner it might not be the best bow to start on. The ironic thing is that having changed over to a tee-bar type release, I have set the cams to mid range and I could have got away with not shortening the draw length in this way.

So the question is, should I take the bow back to my local dealer and see if it is possible to do anything with the cables to make the valley a bit more defined and forgiving, or is such a tight valley a feature of this particular bow?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
If I'm correct, lengthening cables decreases drawlength and vice versa. As far as I'm aware, the valley is not changed. Changes to cables or strings changes the position of the cams at rest. This changes the way the draw begins, leaving the end of the draw unchanged.
 

Adam

Active member
Altering the cables will not change the nature of the valley on a cam & 1/2 Hoyt.

Take a look at the draw length modules on the cams. My guess is that they will be set on probably A or B. On these cams all the modules to to alter the draw length is prevent the complete rotation of the cam, so if it's set towards the bottom of it's range the valley feels very short indeed. You really want to have them set on E or F to allow a full rotation.

Sounds like you may need a new, smaller set of cams. Unfortunately this will also mean new strings and cables. Personnally, I'd take the bow back tot he shop, explain the problem and ask them to help you sort it out. After all, they did sell it to you in the first place.

Adam
 

Max

New member
Adam said:
Altering the cables will not change the nature of the valley on a cam & 1/2 Hoyt.

Take a look at the draw length modules on the cams. My guess is that they will be set on probably A or B. On these cams all the modules to to alter the draw length is prevent the complete rotation of the cam, so if it's set towards the bottom of it's range the valley feels very short indeed. You really want to have them set on E or F to allow a full rotation.

Sounds like you may need a new, smaller set of cams. Unfortunately this will also mean new strings and cables. Personnally, I'd take the bow back tot he shop, explain the problem and ask them to help you sort it out. After all, they did sell it to you in the first place.

Adam
I think I'm on C at the moment, but thanks for the comment on how the Cam 1/2 works, especially how the rotation limit affects the valley. I actually got the bow from eBay on a bit of an impulse (why do I never learn!!!) and Lez at Aardvark Archery has helped me with the setup. I will call in and have a chat to see what might be done - Lez knows his stuff and if anyone can help, he can - if not it is not so much hardship as I have the Ultramag.

Cheers All
 

Max

New member
Jerry Tee said:
Just to clear up a point, do you shoot off the back wall or out of the valley?
Off the Back Wall, Jerry (usually!). So far, the advice I have been given is to pull the bow hard against the stops. There seems very little valley with either of my Hoyt Cam 1/2 bows. My limited understanding is that some bow/cam systems have a valley where after the point of maximum let off, the draw weight increases again and on these systems the bow can be shot from various points in the valley. I have been led to understand that cams like the Hoyt Cam 1/2 don't actually exhibit a valley as such, because the cams come hard up against the stops before the weight increases again?
 

Adam

Active member
Max said:
I have been led to understand that cams like the Hoyt Cam 1/2 don't actually exhibit a valley as such, because the cams come hard up against the stops before the weight increases again?
Correct. It's not so much a valley, more of a flat-spot. That said, the cam & 1/2 has a "longer" flat-spot than the Spiral cam. If you prefer a rock solid wall that forces you to maintain back tension (and good form) try the Spiral cams. I love 'em.

Adam
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
It could be your recurve brain telling you to make a fast movment at the point of release and you get a large twitch. I wouldn't do any thing till Geoff comes back with his answer.
 
R

rgsphoto

Guest
Adam said:
Correct. It's not so much a valley, more of a flat-spot. That said, the cam & 1/2 has a "longer" flat-spot than the Spiral cam. If you prefer a rock solid wall that forces you to maintain back tension (and good form) try the Spiral cams. I love 'em.

Adam
What is the down side of the Spiral cam Adam? is it much quicker than the Cam&1/2?
 

Max

New member
Jerry Tee said:
It could be your recurve brain telling you to make a fast movment at the point of release and you get a large twitch. I wouldn't do any thing till Geoff comes back with his answer.
Good Advice Jerry and one that I am already on to. Geoff very kindly sent me a long PM confrming some of my suspicions and with loads of advice on how to start controlling the shot, techniques for slowly building the 'surprise' element of the shot and some goal setting around that. This is going to be my rehab program.

Hopefully, if I can shoot a bow that is not quite so savage off the stops (possibly my Ultramag, or my Pro Elite if it can be retuned, maybe even another bow), then I can still enjoy shooting in a competition and the effects of the occasional twitch will be much less exagerated.

Which brings me to an interesting point and possibly some conjecture. Should a beginner ideally shoot a bow with a nice long valley (or flat spot), rather than something that flies off the stops? The advantage would be to prevent some of the wild (possibly dangerous) shots that punching a harsh bow might create. however, I can also see that it could hide bad form for longer and delay the development of good back tesion. What type of bow lends itself to a longer flat spot - the opposite of the spiral cam if you like?
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
I can't comment with too much authority on release aids I tried them but I found the temptation to punch overwelming.So I went back to fingers, you could always do the same if can't cure your problem. the plus point with a longer valley is that if you do let forward a little you won't hit the ramp.as for the rest It depends too much on the construction of the bow. A lot of people rave about barnsdales and stable and forgiving they are on Archerytalk, Marcus seems to think that long AtA bows are not that forgiving.You pays your money and fits the bows to your style. For fingers there are two options according to the letoff. Firstly with about 50% letoff and holding about 30 lbs you can shoot like a recurve but out of the valley, there is enough weight to get good finger clearance on loose you could even use a clicker. At higher letoffs there is a light weight on the fingers, pulling firmly into the back wall and loosing with a good backwards movement off the back wall seems to be the way to go.
 

Adam

Active member
rgsphoto said:
What is the down side of the Spiral cam Adam? is it much quicker than the Cam&1/2?
I don't think there is a downside. I shoot my cam & 1/2 Ultratech at 57.5lbs and the spiral cam bow at 54lbs and I reckon it's still quicker. The lower draw weight stops it being any more tiring to shoot. I like the rock-solid wall and the way it forces me to maintain back-tension.

Some may consider the lack of draw-length adjustment to be a problem (there's only about a quarter inch to play with) but, if you know your optimum draw length, it's no big deal.

Adam
 

Davros

New member
Same problem cured by release aid type

I had the same problem- almost anticipating the shot- I called it premature ejaculation! I was fortunate enough to be able to try a range of releases of other club members and found the Cascade did the trick. down to a 28 handicap within a few weeks. The release works opposite from others - the thumb is relaxed off the button to let the shot go, not depressed. See if you can borrow one- If not go to Quicks, they'll let you try one for sure.
 

Bald Eagle

New member
I don't think you have target panic! I used to shoot a Hoyt and got M.B. over and over, 6 gold ends,1300 Fitas 1200plus roses etc etc, Then something happened, I got a Bowtech!! When shooting the Hoyt I had to "strangle"it. When I relaxed into the shot, it used to pull my release out of my hand, hit the riser and fly back over my head! With the Bowtech, the stop is more positive and I don't have any problems with the cams pulling forward. The hoyt cam and a halfs are super, but having now gone to Bowtech, problem solved, scores back up, happy bunny!!!
 

Max

New member
Bald Eagle said:
I don't think you have target panic! I used to shoot a Hoyt and got M.B. over and over, 6 gold ends,1300 Fitas 1200plus roses etc etc, Then something happened, I got a Bowtech!! When shooting the Hoyt I had to "strangle"it. When I relaxed into the shot, it used to pull my release out of my hand, hit the riser and fly back over my head! With the Bowtech, the stop is more positive and I don't have any problems with the cams pulling forward. The hoyt cam and a halfs are super, but having now gone to Bowtech, problem solved, scores back up, happy bunny!!!
Very glad to hear you are happy with the Bowtec Bald Eagle. You are also correct that I don't have target panic, just a collection of bad (and all too common) habits that seem to come along with compound (as indeed there are with other bow types).

As you may have seen from earlier messages, I have been helped a lot by Geoffretired, who has been my 'Virtual Coach' and has got me through this through the application of some simple techniques, particularly getting used to the surprise shot. After going with Geoff's sugestions, it was very clear that I was actually flinching at the prospect of a surprise shot and it was being able to master that aspect that helped me on the way. I guess it is similar to handing a high power pistol to someone for the first time - the matural instinct is to cringe as the trigger is pulled, waiting for the huge explosion.

I was attracted to the Hoyt Cam 1/2 because of the fantastic way the system offered a wide range of draw lengths - what I did not appreciate is that the system works by limiting the cam rotation, which can make the power curve come on very rapidly. What appeared to be great system for a novice, being so adaptable, was also very critical of poor form, especially not being firmly in charge of the bow and keeping the tension on hard.

One day, when I am sure my draw length is OK and I am confident that my form deserves it, I might go for a fixed draw length bow like the Bowtec, but I have some way to go to justify that at the moment.

One hard lesson I have learned is not to buy a race car when you've just passed your test!

Cheers.
 
Top