ILF riser and our limbs.

We are hearing more and more of aftermarket ILF wood risers due to the availablity of ILF kits to build your own.

Our limbs are optimised to work at known limb pad angles. This is an easy one to establish, but there are other areas of concern.
The biggest problem with making risers is the accuracy of the alignment, which with ILF we have no control over with other peoples risers.

There are a few riser makers over the pond that are as commited to making whole bows as we are, so we trust thier professional ability as much as they trust ours for good alignment.

Though we have concerns with more DIY risers.

Please be warned that we do not support our limbs if fitted to any riser not on our approved list.
We are not keep to publish this list, since 100% of all limbs will magically be used on only approved risers. If in doubt of riser/limb compatability for approved support, just ask, we will gladly answer any questions and provide full cover.
If you have a riser you would like to shoot with, and your passing, we can check it out and add a note to say we have approved that particular riser against your limbs to give you a solid foundation of support.
This does not apply to the mainstream 23, and 25" risers.

Just remember, that to get a riser to gain a bows performance you MUST be pushing your limbs harder. so question this claim. There is one 25" riser we would like to see, but we are happy that our limbs are unlikely to find thier way onto that riser.

So if you have a non-mainstream non-conventional riser and want to fit our limbs to it, just phone us, or email us to find out if its good to go...

Tel: 01573 410 295
Email: [email protected]
Skype: "borderbows"

It is a long time since I shot recurve, and ILF wasn't around then!! However, I can appreciate what is being said here.It sounds like Border Bows have got a real feel for the situation that exists with this type of fitting. I like the sound of what they are doing,well done to you!

Hi Sid,

You posted some advice a few years back about fitting ILF target limbs to short field risers (e.g. 17"-19" as opposed to the standard 23"-25"-27"), but I can't find the original thread. But I remember there was concern about mix & matching some limbs, even with top-of-the-range mainstream/conventional field risers, because the shorter bow would translate into 3-4 inches more draw length (?) and therefore more stress on the limbs.

I guess my question is: when Border limbs are among the smoothest available at long draw lengths, is this still a concern?

I'm asking specifically with the wood-core Hex6-W in mind, as I'm in the market for a new pair. But I understand the need for discretion where your support/coverage is at issue, so if you prefer I would be happy to email you details of my own setup, instead of posting here.

Cheers,
Russ

Russ said:

Hi Sid,

You posted some advice a few years back about fitting ILF target limbs to short field risers (e.g. 17"-19" as opposed to the standard 23"-25"-27"), but I can't find the original thread. But I remember there was concern about mix & matching some limbs, even with top-of-the-range mainstream/conventional field risers, because the shorter bow would translate into 3-4 inches more draw length (?) and therefore more stress on the limbs.

I guess my question is: when Border limbs are among the smoothest available at long draw lengths, is this still a concern?

I'm asking specifically with the wood-core Hex6-W in mind, as I'm in the market for a new pair. But I understand the need for discretion where your support/coverage is at issue, so if you prefer I would be happy to email you details of my own setup, instead of posting here.

Cheers,
Russ

Click to expand...

That open and upfront approach is the kind of question that we think is perfect... The reason is that it creates a solid platform for us meeting your expectations. as well as us knowing what you the archer are looking to do with the limbs you have.

First of all, please dont think that stack/smoothness is any way related to stress levels. Stress is a materials design thing, Stack is a geometry thing. the two are not really related at all.

Second is yes we accept short risers, (not all though) some are poorly made. We have a list of risers we accept, and home made isnt one of them.
The reason for this, is we have little understanding of the tollerance of the alignment of the drillings, the limb pad angles, and the alignemtn of the two limbs pads to each other.
WHat our limbs do require is good bow alignment. if you have this, then there is not a worry in the world, (keeping to within our draw length recomendations)

At the time, there were few rules/understandings of what is possible with short bows with ILF limbs but the standards are becoming clear, and things have progressed at least our understanding has.

here is our recomendations:
http://www.borderbows.com/uploads/Bowlength%20Drawlength%20recommendations.pdf.html

If you have more specific questions i would be glad to answer them.

our remit is that you can expect long limbs to have say plus 8-10lbs on marked, but i would expect shorts to achive this... so 4-6lbs above marked would be more acceptable in our view. while meduim limbs sit half way.

so we think that its important to get the right limb for your draw length, then suit the riser to get the bow length... with a little here and there.

Thank you Sid, that's really helpful. Especially the link with recommended/max. draw lengths.

When you say alignment, yes it's clear that all components of the riser have to be aligned properly when it's built. But what about the user-adjustable limb alignment on commercially produced risers, is this an issue too?

I mean, yes of course most archers would (or at least could) read the manual, tweak the right bolts and get the string to sit straight on the limbs. But all archers are not created equal, and I imagine only a few of them could get the limbs to sit as straight at a professional bowyer could. So what tolerances are acceptable for adjustable limb alignment? Are there clear signs when it's right or not?

In the case of my own riser, the tiller may be an issue too. The tiller bolts are eccentric, so alignment is adjusted by turning them less than a full rotation; tiller can only be adjusted by full turns, which means tiller can only be adjusted by +/- 5mm, and it can't be fine tuned without putting the alignment out. But your limbs are usually tillered at the workshop, right? So in theory I could set my limb bolts at equal weight and the tiller would be correct, and then I'd be free to adjust the alignment if necessary.

Russ said:

Thank you Sid, that's really helpful. Especially the link with recommended/max. draw lengths.

When you say alignment, yes it's clear that all components of the riser have to be aligned properly when it's built. But what about the user-adjustable limb alignment on commercially produced risers, is this an issue too?

I mean, yes of course most archers would (or at least could) read the manual, tweak the right bolts and get the string to sit straight on the limbs. But all archers are not created equal, and I imagine only a few of them could get the limbs to sit as straight at a professional bowyer could. So what tolerances are acceptable for adjustable limb alignment? Are there clear signs when it's right or not?

In the case of my own riser, the tiller may be an issue too. The tiller bolts are eccentric, so alignment is adjusted by turning them less than a full rotation; tiller can only be adjusted by full turns, which means tiller can only be adjusted by +/- 5mm, and it can't be fine tuned without putting the alignment out. But your limbs are usually tillered at the workshop, right? So in theory I could set my limb bolts at equal weight and the tiller would be correct, and then I'd be free to adjust the alignment if necessary.

Click to expand...

Oh no...
You have pushed that big red button...

yes ILF adjustability is key and VERY important to get right.

and if you have quality components there is NO need to left right adjustment.

If you cant trust your machineing to be straight on a left right axis, and you have a little more than 10% adjustement in your limb pad angle then you dont have to be accurate there either.
So who forgot to add rotational alignment.
I would hazard a guess that most of the longrod alignment issues you read about are nothing to do with the long rod. more to do with the limb pads being out.
For example if you have the a riser where the limb pads sit square to the riser, then the string will also be square to the riser. If the limb pads are 2-3 deg out, then the bow will look dead straight, but the string will sit 2-3 deg out to the plane of the bow. This will manifest itself in the longrod being out. as it shows you the line of the riser and not the line of the limb pads. you need to shim up the down side of the limb pads to rotate the limbs into line with the longrod.

This is VITAL to the accuracy of the bow since the deflex of the bow will mean that any out of alingment of the limbs pads will create bow torque as you draw the bow back. Imagine pulling a bow where the grip is 3" off to one side of the bow. Aiming will become difficult as you cant keep it on target as the bow is pulled. The any change in release will allow the bow to jump left and right.

anyhow, Bow alinegment is vital to it shooting well. and yes a hootershoot will shoot even a crooked stick with repetition, but you and i are not mechanical.

our limbs have tiller built in, and should be correct with equal bolt positions.

You should in thoery the tiller should move with the limbs if you turned it upside down, and the alignment sould be identical.


Does that make sence

BorderBows said:

Oh no...
our limbs have tiller built in, and should be correct with equal bolt positions.

Click to expand...

Just wanted to chip in here, hopefully usefully

It's my experience that different risers yield different tiller settings.

For example, my PSE Intrepid with both bolts set identically gave a tiller setting with my XP10 limbs of about +3/8in. I found I had to adjust this down to +3/16in.

When I got a PSE X-Factor, the same limbs gave a slightly *negative* tiller setting with both bolts set identically. I had a lot of adjusting to do.

The geometry of the riser does come into play. In my experience, anyway.

JohnK said:

Just wanted to chip in here, hopefully usefully

It's my experience that different risers yield different tiller settings.

For example, my PSE Intrepid with both bolts set identically gave a tiller setting with my XP10 limbs of about +3/8in. I found I had to adjust this down to +3/16in.

When I got a PSE X-Factor, the same limbs gave a slightly *negative* tiller setting with both bolts set identically. I had a lot of adjusting to do.

The geometry of the riser does come into play. In my experience, anyway.

Click to expand...

If you swapped the limbs round ()top to bottom and vice versa) and the results changed, then i would suggest that the limb pad angles are not accurate. since the same limbs dont change if they are in a top or bottom pocket.

Nope. I just made sure the limb bolts were equal and fully wound out each time.

Not sure what you mean by the limb pad angles. The X-Factor and Intrepid are balanced very differently. The Intrepid was much more top heavy and if you put them side by side you can see that the grip position on the bows do not match; i.e. one is higher than the other.

If you put a set of limbs on a riser, and the limb pads have symetrical angles. (red lines on this picture)
then the limb balance will be equal.
IF your have one that comes straight out the riser and the other comes out at 90 deg to the riser, then the balance will show up as VERY odd.

so if you have one limb pad at 15 deg and the other at 17 deg then the balance will show differently to a riser with both pads at 16 deg.

So if you have two bolts wound out from a reference of "flush" and the tiller shows as different, then you have a difference in datums from top to bottom limb pockets.

if both limb pads are equal, then swapping the limbs top to bottom will show this by being equal in measurements, just upside down.
If you have different amounts showing when you reverse the limbs then the settings are different, Be that bolt positions OR bolt positions due to limb pad error.

Got it.

But presumably, the centre point of the bow can also change things; in other words, how much riser there is above the centre, and how much is below.

For example, I understand the Luxor is a Nilo, but with much of the extra length added to the bottom half of the riser. I'd be interested to know what you think of the Luxor in this respect the next time you get your hands on one

P.S. And stop posting photos of the X-Appeal. It reminds me a) how much I'd like one and b) how annoyed I am that it doesn't come in 27in

JohnK said:

Got it.

But presumably, the centre point of the bow can also change things; in other words, how much riser there is above the centre, and how much is below.

For example, I understand the Luxor is a Nilo, but with much of the extra length added to the bottom half of the riser. I'd be interested to know what you think of the Luxor in this respect the next time you get your hands on one

P.S. And stop posting photos of the X-Appeal. It reminds me a) how much I'd like one and b) how annoyed I am that it doesn't come in 27in

Click to expand...

not on the accuracy of the limb pockets. the center of the bow grip can change the way you pressure the grip and the NP required, or even a different tiller setting, but in our view on ILF, the pockets should be equal and accurate.

Tiller is very much like spine. Its a static non dynamic meausrment to measure a personal and dynamic reaction. With adjustability on ILF risers there is little need for accurate angles on pockets, and there is also little need for accuracy on the drillings since its adjustable, and if thats the case then the i see a need for rotational adjustment since there appears very little control of the pockets in 2 out of 3 axis. Why pay attention to one??? when they are all equally important?

They are, no argument from me.

I think what's happened here is this:

I thought you meant that static tiller should always be the same no matter the riser geometry, and if it wasn't, there was something wrong with the riser. What I believe you actually meant was simply that the limb butt angles should be consistent.

Am I correct?

JohnK said:

They are, no argument from me.

I think what's happened here is this:

I thought you meant that static tiller should always be the same no matter the riser geometry, and if it wasn't, there was something wrong with the riser. What I believe you actually meant was simply that the limb butt angles should be consistent.

Am I correct?

Click to expand...

Ah...

if you bolted the limbs tight down, all risers should show the same tiller from the same pair of limbs.
If you swapped the limbs round, then the tiller should move with the limbs if the limb pads are equal.

now how you personally set up each bow for real world shooting might require different tiller settings bedpending on stabiliser and grip positions within the riser. as well as how you grip the bow and pull the string.

It's no good. We'll have to talk about this in person over a bottle of whisky

JohnK said:

It's no good. We'll have to talk about this in person over a bottle of whisky

Click to expand...

Each!
:-0
i seeee trouble a head!

I think I do too

Sorry for derailing the thread a bit!

BorderBows said:

Each!
:-0
i seeee trouble a head!

Click to expand...

i seeee treble a head