Weight variations in shafts

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archer_alan

Guest
I have read through quite a few threads on arrow shafts and can't recall one regarding a problem I have, apologies if it has been done before.

As a result of a recent (small) windfall I decided to buy enough bits and pieces to make up 3 dozen 'identical' arrows, having found what I consider to be a working combination (for me) of spine weight, pile weight, draw length, etc.

Having finally made up most of these arrows I was interested to see what sort of variation there is in weight across the set of arrows and am fairly amazed at the results.

Despite using identical fletches, nocks, piles, wraps and shaft lengths the range of weights varies between 420 and 540 grains, a lot more than I was expecting? The shafts were all (supposedly) in the range of 46 - 50lbs when purchased?

To be honest I can live with this variation, I will just group them in smaller sets which weigh about the same as each other, and gradually try and find what works best.

I just wondered if this is an acceptable tolerance from a set of bare shafts?

I have read various accounts of making up arrows and matching spine weights and the way to do it but they all seem so time consuming and I did wonder if it would make that much difference.
 

lbp121

Member
I assume we are talking wood here? The worst I have had with carbon or alloy was a range of under 10gr, which | was horrified at, usually + or - 1 or 2gr.
Wood fans have been known to buy 100 shafts, weighing and spine testing them all to get a set and returning the rest.
 
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archer_alan

Guest
I assume we are talking wood here? The worst I have had with carbion or alloy was a rage of under 10gr, which | was horrified at, usually = or - 1 or 2gr.
Wood fans have been known to buy 100 shafts, weighing and spine testing them all to get a set and returning the rest.
Yes, cedar shafts. Must admit I will probably take my electronic scales with me next time I get any shafts and check the weights as well as straightness.....
 

fanio

Active member
Yes, for aluminium or carbon shafts I would not accept more than a 1gr variation in bare shafts.
 

lbp121

Member
My worst alloys were cheap Korean ones, usually there isn't a problem with US or better Far East products. A very nice set of professionally made longbow arrows were matched in spine and weight to about 5gr and these were very reliable in flight. Fun arrows really don't matter but if you want any consistency at all, both spine and weight should be close. Also arrange the shaft so the grain is orientated the same way each arrow as spine isn't the same at every position of rotation.
 

DavidH

New member
There is a thread somewhere, when we went through this. We concluded, I think, that wood is a natural product and no two shafts can ever be identical. Even if you match the spine, the weight of the shaft might not be the same and vice-versa. That what makes traditional shooting that much more exciting;)

The great Horace Ford would make up dozens of arrows and then shoot them to select the ones that grouped best.
 
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archer_alan

Guest
There is a thread somewhere, when we went through this. We concluded, I think, that wood is a natural product and no two shafts can ever be identical. Even if you match the spine, the weight of the shaft might not be the same and vice-versa. That what makes traditional shooting that much more exciting
To be honest I think a lot of my earlier arrows were like this, and it's never really bothered me up till now.

The great Horace Ford would make up dozens of arrows and then shoot them to select the ones that grouped best.
That's probably what I will be doing now I have 3 'dozens' to play with....
 

Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
Out of interest have you checked the spine of each shaft? Alot of archers don't think a 5lb limit is close enough for their arrows so will check spines individually to get a closer spine.
Generally as a rule of thumb I tend to measure the weight of the shaft and the weight of the point (before attaching) and matching the heavier points with the lighter shafts to bring the collective weight together.
Also what is the centre of gravity like in your arrows?
 

WillS

New member
As Raven's Eye said, not only do you have to worry about the wooden shaft itself, but the point as well. If you buy 12 points, most of them will be different weights. Personally I do exactly as Raven's Eye does and match heavier points with lighter arrows or vice versa.

By the time you factor in a difference within each shaft, a difference with each point, a difference with each nock (unless you self nock?) and so on, plus amounts of glue etc etc, you can be a long way out for each arrow.

The question is - does this matter? Are you a good enough archer to know the difference? Unless you can shoot the same arrow at exactly the same place every single time with no difference, different arrows won't make much difference!
 
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archer_alan

Guest
Out of interest have you checked the spine of each shaft? Alot of archers don't think a 5lb limit is close enough for their arrows so will check spines individually to get a closer spine.
Generally as a rule of thumb I tend to measure the weight of the shaft and the weight of the point (before attaching) and matching the heavier points with the lighter shafts to bring the collective weight together.
Also what is the centre of gravity like in your arrows?
I haven't checked each spine, no, but will be doing that in future. I haven't been shooting that long so haven't really thought I needed to be that precise? As for the centre of gravity I have checked a few of the lighter arrows (31" overall length tip to tip) and its roughly 12" from the front, 19" from the back, putting it 3.5" in front of the centre of the arrow. It doesn't seem to change significantly on the heavier arrows.
 

DavidH

New member
As Raven's Eye said, not only do you have to worry about the wooden shaft itself, but the point as well. If you buy 12 points, most of them will be different weights. Personally I do exactly as Raven's Eye does and match heavier points with lighter arrows or vice versa.

By the time you factor in a difference within each shaft, a difference with each point, a difference with each nock (unless you self nock?) and so on, plus amounts of glue etc etc, you can be a long way out for each arrow.

The question is - does this matter? Are you a good enough archer to know the difference? Unless you can shoot the same arrow at exactly the same place every single time with no difference, different arrows won't make much difference!
Come on WillS, of course we can shoot exactly the same place each time, straight in the grass;)
 

DavidH

New member
I haven't checked each spine, no, but will be doing that in future. I haven't been shooting that long so haven't really thought I needed to be that precise? As for the centre of gravity I have checked a few of the lighter arrows (31" overall length tip to tip) and its roughly 12" from the front, 19" from the back, putting it 3.5" in front of the centre of the arrow. It doesn't seem to change significantly on the heavier arrows.
I've found that spine is usually fairly accurate, but that's within 5#. Recurve and compound archers would shudder at that kind of difference, but as traditional archers we know that we wont be as precise. Its all part of the wonderful pleasure of traditional archery.
 
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archer_alan

Guest
I've found that spine is usually fairly accurate, but that's within 5#. Recurve and compound archers would shudder at that kind of difference, but as traditional archers we know that we wont be as precise. Its all part of the wonderful pleasure of traditional archery.
I actually shoot recurve myself, but 'bare' as such, and I don't have any problems with the huge variations in all the specs of the arrows. I do sometimes wonder at some of the things I read here, but as you say, it's a part of a bigger picture......
 
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archer_alan

Guest
If you buy 12 points, most of them will be different weights. Personally I do exactly as Raven's Eye does and match heavier points with lighter arrows or vice versa.
I use the #top hat# points and there is very little difference in actual weight between them.

By the time you factor in a difference within each shaft, a difference with each point, a difference with each nock (unless you self nock?) and so on, plus amounts of glue etc etc, you can be a long way out for each arrow
I have narrowed it down to the actual shaft having a variation in weight, the other bits are pretty consistent.

The question is - does this matter? Are you a good enough archer to know the difference? Unless you can shoot the same arrow at exactly the same place every single time with no difference, different arrows won't make much difference!
My point entirely, which is probably why my scores at NFAS 3D shoots are gradually improving (got another 3rd at Avalon recently) and my scores at EFAA 'standard' targets are taking longer to improve?

At the end of the day I am really enjoying my archery for a number of reasons, it's getting me fit again, it's giving me something to think about in my spare time, it's helping me meet people and I am on a new learning curve! I will never be a world class archer, nor do I want to be, I just want to do something that I want to keep on at, and I'd like to try and get others involved too.
 

WillS

New member
At the end of the day I am really enjoying my archery for a number of reasons, it's getting me fit again, it's giving me something to think about in my spare time, it's helping me meet people and I am on a new learning curve! I will never be a world class archer, nor do I want to be, I just want to do something that I want to keep on at, and I'd like to try and get others involved too.
I think this is the most important thing of all! As long as you're enjoying it, who cares? :)

I try fairly hard to match all my arrows, but I'm still realistic in that I know I'm not good enough to see a difference yet. I may never be, but it's still damn good fun getting closer each time.

I wouldn't class myself as a target shooter, as the draw weight of my bows are moving rapidly towards EWBS shoots and distance shoots, but I would love at some point to be able to pick up any arrow and shoot it accurately, regardless of weight, spine, length etc. I know a few people who can do it, so it's definitely possible with dedication!

That being said, the better the quality of equipment, the more accurate you will end up being. If you minimise variables, you'll see more consistent results, I guess?
 
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archer_alan

Guest
I think this is the most important thing of all! As long as you're enjoying it, who cares? :)

I try fairly hard to match all my arrows, but I'm still realistic in that I know I'm not good enough to see a difference yet. I may never be, but it's still damn good fun getting closer each time.

That being said, the better the quality of equipment, the more accurate you will end up being. If you minimise variables, you'll see more consistent results, I guess?
I actually shot a round at our local EFAA course yesterday afternoon, using any 4 of the 5 lightest arrows as they are all fairly close in weight, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that on a lot of targets they seem to be fairly well grouped (even if not in the centre of the target - lol!) I will be doing the same with different groups of similar weighted arrows, I am putting a different coloured ring for each group around the top of the arrow to distinguish them. I am really interested to see how the heavier sets compare with the lighter ones over different distances.
 

Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
I find that sometimes you need to aim highier with the lighter ones than with the heavy ones (which is good as it means more power is going into the heavy shaft than into the bow). What was interesting at the last shoot I had was that if shooting into a head on wind you aim lower, whilst in a wind from behind you have to aim highier all to get the same distance. I found this quite interesting as I would have expected it to be the reverse.
 
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