Double served end loops?

The Meggy

Active member
In the days when I shot recurve I can remember that Marksman used to make and sell bowstrings which had double served end loops. The strings were always very nicely done giving a very smooth appearance where the loops started, plus the effect that the loops appeared to be the same thickness as the main part of the string. Since I now make strings, I would like to know how to do these double served loops like Marksman used to, can anyone help with this? Cheers!
 

Bald Eagle

New member
I liked their strings too and started to double serve the ends as they did. Just serve right to left on the bottom loop and then go back left to right overlapping the first "layer" to approx 1/4" short of the first "layer". Straighten the posts of the jig, (in-line)and finish off the serving. You should have 3 layers, double, single and string so when you fall off each "layer" to the string all will be the same thickness/dia. Repeat on the top loop going left to right, then right to left before turning the posts so the twists fall in line.
 

The Meggy

Active member
I liked their strings too and started to double serve the ends as they did. Just serve right to left on the bottom loop and then go back left to right overlapping the first "layer" to approx 1/4" short of the first "layer". Straighten the posts of the jig, (in-line)and finish off the serving. You should have 3 layers, double, single and string so when you fall off each "layer" to the string all will be the same thickness/dia. Repeat on the top loop going left to right, then right to left before turning the posts so the twists fall in line.
Right on the money BE! I knew somebody must know about this. Thanks for sharing this information, I will have some fun practicing this now and see if I can replicate those lovely old Marksman strings. Cheers! :beer::cake:
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I know this is not quite the same thing, but I made a string like the ones shown on Friskney Bowmen's sight.
The idea is that you use the bowstring ends, to serve the end loops. You then serve the rest of the end section as normal. You get that smooth blending in that you are talking about; plus it is quicker and lighter and cheaper.Cheaper and quicker to make may not be serious benefits:fita:; a faster string may be useful, in some circumstances where double serving might not help.
 

The Meggy

Active member
I know this is not quite the same thing, but I made a string like the ones shown on Friskney Bowmen's sight.
The idea is that you use the bowstring ends, to serve the end loops. You then serve the rest of the end section as normal. You get that smooth blending in that you are talking about; plus it is quicker and lighter and cheaper.Cheaper and quicker to make may not be serious benefits:fita:; a faster string may be useful, in some circumstances where double serving might not help.
Geoff, I am way ahead of you mate! I have already made a couple of sets of strings for my compound this way and have been using them all this year. I find it to be easily the best way for me to make compound strings, with all the benefits you describe. The speed issue is no small thing for me either, since it generally does take me quite a while to make strings! Plus I find it allows me to avoid having any unwanted twisting of the strands, so that I can always achieve zero peep rotation. Good for ensuring no slack strands as well.

I'm a little bit more dubious about using the method for recurve strings as I'm not sure how well the loop would wear given the movement you get on a recurve limb tip. Might be worth experimenting though.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I'm a little bit more dubious about using the method for recurve strings as I'm not sure how well the loop would wear given the movement you get on a recurve limb tip. Might be worth experimenting though.
The Meggy,
When I first started shooting I was at an inter counties comp and one of the expected winners was showing me his string.( recurve.)
The end loops weren't served at all. He was using Kevlar,too.
I've only served two end loop since for my own recurves or compounds.
I did the Friskney type for someone else; and made one for myself at the same time. The unserved loops have never broken as you see any fraying( if it happens) long before they become dangerous. The big disadvantage for me was taking the loops on and off as the strands were separate and sometimes I dropped a stitch.
 

The Meggy

Active member
Actually I know a recurve archer (from Friskney Bowmen as it happens) who also doesn't serve his loops and it seems to work fine for him too. Although he is not using the method shown on their website, i.e. he just leaves the plain strands of string showing for the loops. I would like to try doing some recurve strings like my compound ones to see how well they work. Sadly I don't have a recurve to try it with anymore (sold my last one about twelve years ago) so I might just have to experiment on a "volunteer" instead! Usually I charge a modest fee for my strings, but I doubt I will find anyone willing to pay for such an experimental model. Maybe I'll just give someone a freeby to see if they get on OK with it though.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I have made strings for others using the unserved loops. On one bow, the loops started to fray. The owner said that it used to happen with the normal served loops, too.!!
We smoothed out the roughness in the nocks before any more damage could be done. I guess it's worth checking their old string loops for wear before trying an unserved type.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi EVC, I think that the limbs are under stress from the tension in the string and at the end of the power stroke they get a jolt. If the limb tips were made from a soft material, then the thinner string would cut through more quickly. As the limb tips are normally reinforced, I imagine it will take a long time to do any noticeable damage.
I have seen limb tips that show wear from the loop serving as it is often a fairly rough material.
 

The Meggy

Active member
EVC might have a bit of a point there Geoff, although I imagine you are right in that it is not an issue for modern reinforced limb tips. I suppose you could ask what the actual point of having no loop serving is though, after all you are only saving a few pence worth of soft-twist or whatever. Perhaps you have some thoughts on this?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi The Meggy,
When the guy spoke to me about leaving the end loops unserved, his reasons were that,( in the days of Kevlar which broke after X shots--remember that stuff?) he could see the fraying before anything broke. With the loops served they went with no warning and could result in damage to bows or archers.
He also explained about not having knots in the strings as that produced a section that could not move under servings so would produce one tight spot that would take more than a fair share of the strain , and cause a break.I'd been shooting less than two years by then and took his word for it. It still makes sense to me now. Making a string with no loop servings, can be done on a two post jig, in half the time, and there is no bulge where the loop servings meet the next bit.Money savings were a bit tongue in cheek.
 

Robin the Hood

New member
I liked their strings too and started to double serve the ends as they did. Just serve right to left on the bottom loop and then go back left to right overlapping the first "layer" to approx 1/4" short of the first "layer". Straighten the posts of the jig, (in-line)and finish off the serving. You should have 3 layers, double, single and string so when you fall off each "layer" to the string all will be the same thickness/dia. Repeat on the top loop going left to right, then right to left before turning the posts so the twists fall in line.
It all goes back to the old days when Kevlar was out, the tendancy was for the string to be critical on the corners, so the double serving cushioned the corners better. It's tendancy was to go either on the corners of the loops, or where the arrow nocked onto the string. I always carried on with the double serving myself, with the belief that, if it saved kevlar wearing through so quick, then maybe it has it's benefits on Fast flight etc. Also I sometimes wonder if the thicker serving contributes to the cushioning of the string / limb sound.
The only point I would add to Bald Eagle is that a bit more patience is needed on the second end, as alignment is more tricky but important...:thumbsup:

Paul...
:chat:
 

The Meggy

Active member
It all goes back to the old days when Kevlar was out, the tendancy was for the string to be critical on the corners, so the double serving cushioned the corners better. It's tendancy was to go either on the corners of the loops, or where the arrow nocked onto the string. I always carried on with the double serving myself, with the belief that, if it saved kevlar wearing through so quick, then maybe it has it's benefits on Fast flight etc. Also I sometimes wonder if the thicker serving contributes to the cushioning of the string / limb sound.
The only point I would add to Bald Eagle is that a bit more patience is needed on the second end, as alignment is more tricky but important...:thumbsup:

Paul...
:chat:
Cheers for that info Paul, I'll have to practice! Did not realise that was how they started out. I started archery in early 1991 as far as I remember, and didn't discover Marksman until about 1992/93 when I bought a KG1 bow (dearly wish I still had it!). By that time I think kevlar must have already been a thing of the past pretty much - I certainly never saw anyone using a kevlar string. But we do have an archer in my club whose limbs seem to wear through the serving loops at the corners pretty fast, so I might try making a double served job for him to see what he thinks.
 
G

GilliesDP

Guest
Marksman bows and Keith Gascoigne designs

I didn't discover Marksman until about 1992/93 when I bought a KG1 bow (dearly wish I still had it!).
Hi

I discovered Marksman in the 1960s and 1970s, when Keith Gascoigne was King! I bought (for old times' sake, and because it avoids ILF issues) a black Marksman alloy riser R/H that had 38lbs limbs to fit my L/H Marksman Meteor.

I use the limbs all the time, but never use a R/H riser. Could you find the right limbs? The riser would get you half way back! ..

If you can PM me I can get contact details and a photo to you - if you are interested .. ;-)

Regards,
Gillies DP
Soar Valley Archers
 

The Meggy

Active member
Hi

I discovered Marksman in the 1960s and 1970s, when Keith Gascoigne was King! I bought (for old times' sake, and because it avoids ILF issues) a black Marksman alloy riser R/H that had 38lbs limbs to fit my L/H Marksman Meteor.

I use the limbs all the time, but never use a R/H riser. Could you find the right limbs? The riser would get you half way back! ..

If you can PM me I can get contact details and a photo to you - if you are interested .. ;-)

Regards,
Gillies DP
Soar Valley Archers
A kind thought cheers Gillies, but on reflection I think I should stick to the compound I shoot nowadays. If I still had my old KG1, then I would never sell it, but given that I don't I'll just stay as I am! But cheers for replying - I had forgotten about this thread, as I last posted on it some time ago!
 

madmac

Active member
Cheers for that info Paul, I'll have to practice! Did not realise that was how they started out. I started archery in early 1991 as far as I remember, and didn't discover Marksman until about 1992/93 when I bought a KG1 bow (dearly wish I still had it!).


Im still shooting my KG1 and Keith made me carbon limbs for it . I now have 3 sets of limbs for my KG1 but dont think i would buy any other riser (might go for the astron or nemisis) if it starts to creak a bit (nothing yet 42lb for at least 9 :cloud9:years)
 

Nick Forster

Member
Ironman
For KG1 lovers

After speaking to keith a couple of weeks ago he is seriously thinking about launching a new KG1 as his 50 anneversary bow next year, this bow will follow the lines of the old riser but will be cnc machined instead of cast and the limbs will have the nexgen type laminates. if it is made I will buy one.
Imagine a super modern KG1!! with an arrow spead of 215fps +
Nick.
 

backinblack

Active member
Hi Geoff,

Can I trouble you for a link to the info on the Friskney Bowmen site please? I've had a look but can't seem to spot it.

Time to improve my serving skills methinks.

Many thanks,
Backinblack
 

madmac

Active member
After speaking to keith a couple of weeks ago he is seriously thinking about launching a new KG1 as his 50 anneversary bow next year, this bow will follow the lines of the old riser but will be cnc machined instead of cast and the limbs will have the nexgen type laminates. if it is made I will buy one.
Imagine a super modern KG1!! with an arrow spead of 215fps +
Nick.
yup spoke to Keith and have already started saving pennies for my new bow:yummy:now to speak to the wife:dizzy:
 
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