another one goes West

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Eluned

Member
Seems to be a very sensible move. After all, she is an Olympic recurve target archery coach. Munsterman, you may be correct in your assessment of Songi Woo's coaching abilities within the former AGB Olympic Performance Unit but let's be real, the bar was not very high was it? Anyway, to remain in the UK would be tantamount to taking early retirement. I was somewhat bemused by her decision to come here in the first place. It seemed to me that either her judgement was not all that sound or that she was anxious to quickly find an Olympic coaching position after jumping from her Mexican perch.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
What are you supposed to do when there is no money going forward to pay your salary, coaching at this level is not Philanthropy.
 

Munsterman

Active member
totally agree. I think she has made the right choice. She still has a good international standing so is right to capitalise on it. I think that the current PU director has some interesting plans and she would have been a great part of it, but sadly they are a few years off being put in to action on a meaningful scale.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
I am not a fan of the promise of jam tomorrow, we have had too much of that for 10 years and nothing has materialised - it is the here and now that matters. Ironically, some of the archers on the GBR squad are in pretty good shape, training hard and early in the season are within a point or two of the sensible 70m qualifying score of 665 (gents). AGB has accepted reality and put its focus on the archers doing it now and their ability to get the qualifying scores, not the paymaster, age and all the politics that surrounded it. Trouble is the money is still needed to help these guys go to the right tournaments and train properly. The Antalya round of the World Cup for example will be self funded for those that get the qualifying scores...
 

Eluned

Member
But Whitehart, your last post seems to be pointing the finger of blame for the present condition of GBR Olympic target archery towards UK Sport with suggestions of the implementation of some twisted ideology of "political correctness". This thinking is just as lazy and befuddled as is the absurdity of "political correctness gone mad" that it purports to challenge. If you really want a meritocratic system that facilitates the development of great archery skills and knowledge and simultaneously does the same for coaching standards then set up a proper national competition structure which feeds directly into GBR representation. Allow the tournament to be the arbiter of talent. To understand why Olympic recurve target archery has reached the sorry nadir that it has to date in the UK you simply need to ask yourself why such a structure has not been set up. Who loses influence and power if the arbitration for selection is placed elsewhere? How many silk purses did Ms. Woo make during her time at Lillishall? She may be a credible international coach but she washed up on the wrong beach after jumping from the Mexican ship. There are those who have a starting point that is "The Coach" and an ending point that again is all about "The Coach" That is the #*!@#"# problem.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
I think Sport UK have a lot to answer for, they have dictated as they do with many sports how they should be run with the threat of the removal of funding if they don't comply. They have imposed loads of constitutional changes requiring ridiculous amounts of time to be wasted as well as insisting on additional top heavy staff to oversea everything. Totally out of proportion for a sport with a membership of 30-40K. This time could have been better spent as you say looking at the competition structure in the UK, considering how the sport can grow and how clubs can prosper and facilities in clubs improved, IMO the agenda of Sport UK and AGB could not be further apart. We now have found ourselves in a position where from an athletes point of view anyone in the UK (GBR & N Ireland) can if they put the work in get the new qualifying scores represent GBR. There is now no place for embarrassment of those in the inner circle picking archers outside of the funding system and having to explain to Sport UK why the ones in the funding system were left out. I have seen how this has enthused previously disillusioned archers to up their game and strive to achieve the new qualifying scores. Already we have at least two archers doing this and the rest are really not that far behind - a real step forward. Archery is a personal sport it is up to the individual how far they want to go - no more (although I am not sure we ever did) shoot the way we tell you etc... Archers are free to follow their own training schedule the important bit is getting the qualification scores not just once but regularly these scores put our archers in the Top 32 easily so at least we then have a chance of medals. The playing field has been leveled and the cream is rising to the top. No waiting, no jam, tomorrow no sentiment, just do it.
 

Munsterman

Active member
I don't think it is a case of jam tomorrow, just a case of a willingness to rip up the old order but such changes take time to root.
Irrespective, there hasn't been any sign of a world beating UK archer in a generation, and I am not sure that there are any inside/outside the selection system at present. Until archery in the UK is overhauled from the bottom up then that wont change.
 

LMK

New member
I think Sport UK have a lot to answer for, they have dictated as they do with many sports how they should be run with the threat of the removal of funding if they don't comply. They have imposed loads of constitutional changes requiring ridiculous amounts of time to be wasted as well as insisting on additional top heavy staff to oversea everything. Totally out of proportion for a sport with a membership of 30-40K. This time could have been better spent as you say looking at the competition structure in the UK, considering how the sport can grow and how clubs can prosper and facilities in clubs improved, IMO the agenda of Sport UK and AGB could not be further apart. We now have found ourselves in a position where from an athletes point of view anyone in the UK (GBR & N Ireland) can if they put the work in get the new qualifying scores represent GBR. There is now no place for embarrassment of those in the inner circle picking archers outside of the funding system and having to explain to Sport UK why the ones in the funding system were left out. I have seen how this has enthused previously disillusioned archers to up their game and strive to achieve the new qualifying scores. Already we have at least two archers doing this and the rest are really not that far behind - a real step forward. Archery is a personal sport it is up to the individual how far they want to go - no more (although I am not sure we ever did) shoot the way we tell you etc... Archers are free to follow their own training schedule the important bit is getting the qualification scores not just once but regularly these scores put our archers in the Top 32 easily so at least we then have a chance of medals. The playing field has been leveled and the cream is rising to the top. No waiting, no jam, tomorrow no sentiment, just do it.
Archery GB has a lot to answer for not UK Sport - many of the important topics you raise in this post are not UKS but Sport England issues. Yes UKS is imposing a new governance structure but to be honest this is required to shift some of the old "blazers" out of entrenched committee positions and for all sports to modernise, to put in place the right structures and remove the nepotism that has underpinned many failing sports over years. The only people to blame are previous AGB performance directors and coaches. With the governance code UKS is looking for accountability, yes it is going to take a quantum shift but it does mean cleared lines - no more hiding. If the sport does not want the new code then it can of course choose not to take UKS or SE funding there are plenty of other sports who are working hard to apply the new code, not it is not easy but it has been needed for decades.
 
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Eluned

Member
You have put the arrow smack into the centre of the "spider" with your last post, LMK. It has been a core theme of my own for these many years that a change of culture has been screamingly obviously needed within the sport and its governance and administration. That further, the most effective way to achieve this is through accountability and the acknowledgement of responsibility. Even now, veterans of an involvement with the sport continue to scapegoat UK Sport for the failures of AGB. Yes there are issues with regard to UK Sport but it does not have any remit to interfere within the governance and administration of any sport. And yes, Whitehart, it was very much a case of "shoot the way we tell you" and a sausage machine producing "archers" that did not themselves know what their shot was and what was required to put the arrow to the target. The coach, stood behind the shooting line was The Expert. The Head Expert then passed on his / her methodology to underling experts and wannabe experts. What little merit that may have existed in the initial methodology as understood by The Head Expert gets distorted and diluted and corrupted in the crazy game of Chinese Whispers that would ensue with Chief Underling Experts and The Head Expert all acting as Keepers Of The Ultimate Secret within the walled garden of the PU.

Yes, Whitehart the fact that the qualifying scores are published and that the doors appear to have been thrown open for GBR selection will encourage some but it is not enough. This is merely a desperate gesture because the fact is that there is no funding for a PU and that any Olympic Coach inside the old PU who has a right and proper ambition to retain Olympic involvement would need to get on their bike as Ms. Woo has done. That was a "no brainer". The need for a cultural change cries out for the competitive element of target archery to be reintroduced to target archery tournaments in the UK. Leisure archers and dilettantes can all participate in proper archery tournaments but athletes and coaches who are serious about their sport cannot thrive without proper competitive tournament structures. This means that a meaningful and inclusive National Tournament structure that complies with international rules of shooting, not Lillishall Green Book Rules, is essential.

You would think, for the membership fees involved with AGB plus Region plus County plus Club, that a proper and meaningful national tournament structure could be organised. Obviously not.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
So whilst practicing this morning, trying to give my conscious brain something to do so that the subconscious can get on with the act of putting the arrows where they are supposed to go.

I got to thinking what would a National Competition Structure look like and to be honest I do not know.

The hear and now is that to get into the Gents GBR team the minimum requirement is to shoot 665-670 on a WRS shoot and secure one of 3 places. To meet the criteria to get a National Ranking, from now until the end of the season I am not short of WRS to choose from and not having to travel all over the country. If I want to be involved in a season long competition I can enrol in the National Series. All of which will now get you noticed and if you are already in the top 20 your are offered an early place so we can see our best archers compete - what is wrong with this approach?

At this point I hear the cry's that it is not "National" but a National Competition would have to be that and archers interested would have to travel all over the country.

If I think back to the 90's when we won some Olympic medals we used to have a 6 stage Double FITA Grand Prix circuit where archers had to attend enough events to get a ranking to then be considered for selection, lots of costs, lots of weekends and lots of travelling and annual holiday used up on the Fridays and Mondays.

However much we want to ignore it archery is a minority sport and 99% of archers only have a passing interested in events at the top level and not seriously interested in putting the work in to have a chance of achieving it, so how do we work with what we have.

I don't do spilt milk or I told you so - I don't care how we got to this point, all that interests me is how we move forward - from what I understand the system we have now has correctly identified the best 6 men recurve archers in the UK capable of representing us on the World stage and a list of those bubbling under both seniors and juniors. None of these archers since the loss of funding have thrown the towel in, if anything the removal of a protective barrier has inspired them to move their games on.

Yes long term international success is a numbers game, but where are all these people coming from and where are all the unpaid volunteers to help make it happen.?

So what will a National Competition structure look like, that will inspire 1000's of people to take up archery with the goal of GBR representation and International medals and what do we do in the meantime just sit on our hands?
 

Hidden Hippo

New member
The conversion rate needs to be increased to help the UK succeed. At the moment I get the feeling that a lot of people try the sport, but comparatively few take the step to compete, especially at a high level. To achieve that I think the UK needs to focus on getting more attractive competitions. Domestically perhaps a shift to prize pools (not necessarily a large pool, but something to give a bit more incentive to win) and a step away from casual competitions would help. Internationally the UK lacks a Nimes/Vegas/Arizona Cup level shoot. The National Series is a good start, but a focus on bringing along a big group of top level archers, whilst still allowing open entry, would encourage competition in my opinion.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
The conversion rate needs to be increased to help the UK succeed. At the moment I get the feeling that a lot of people try the sport, but comparatively few take the step to compete, especially at a high level.
I would never advise anyone to take up archery as a professional athlete. As a young person, by the time you make it then get dropped, you could be 10 to 15 years behind anyone of your age with any type of professional career. Archery in this country is little more than a hobby.

To achieve that I think the UK needs to focus on getting more attractive competitions. Domestically perhaps a shift to prize pools (not necessarily a large pool, but something to give a bit more incentive to win) and a step away from casual competitions would help. Internationally the UK lacks a Nimes/Vegas/Arizona Cup level shoot. The National Series is a good start, but a focus on bringing along a big group of top level archers, whilst still allowing open entry, would encourage competition in my opinion.
I know some people on this forum are not fans of the National Series, but they are doing something right. It would be nice to actually get into one from time to time without having to go on a waiting list though :)
Prize money, I have often regretted taking up a sport with so little on offer, and even having to pay to get trophies engraved is like a punishment for coming 1st. But for sponsored shoots that have the backing of the big manufacturers, the UK might struggle I think.
 

Eluned

Member
So whilst practicing this morning, trying to give my conscious brain something to do so that the subconscious can get on with the act of putting the arrows where they are supposed to go.

I got to thinking what would a National Competition Structure look like and to be honest I do not know.

The hear and now is that to get into the Gents GBR team the minimum requirement is to shoot 665-670 on a WRS shoot and secure one of 3 places. To meet the criteria to get a National Ranking, from now until the end of the season I am not short of WRS to choose from and not having to travel all over the country. If I want to be involved in a season long competition I can enrol in the National Series. All of which will now get you noticed and if you are already in the top 20 your are offered an early place so we can see our best archers compete - what is wrong with this approach?

At this point I hear the cry's that it is not "National" but a National Competition would have to be that and archers interested would have to travel all over the country.

If I think back to the 90's when we won some Olympic medals we used to have a 6 stage Double FITA Grand Prix circuit where archers had to attend enough events to get a ranking to then be considered for selection, lots of costs, lots of weekends and lots of travelling and annual holiday used up on the Fridays and Mondays.

However much we want to ignore it archery is a minority sport and 99% of archers only have a passing interested in events at the top level and not seriously interested in putting the work in to have a chance of achieving it, so how do we work with what we have.

I don't do spilt milk or I told you so - I don't care how we got to this point, all that interests me is how we move forward - from what I understand the system we have now has correctly identified the best 6 men recurve archers in the UK capable of representing us on the World stage and a list of those bubbling under both seniors and juniors. None of these archers since the loss of funding have thrown the towel in, if anything the removal of a protective barrier has inspired them to move their games on.

Yes long term international success is a numbers game, but where are all these people coming from and where are all the unpaid volunteers to help make it happen.?

So what will a National Competition structure look like, that will inspire 1000's of people to take up archery with the goal of GBR representation and International medals and what do we do in the meantime just sit on our hands?
So; let me get this right. This morning your practice involved thinking all the above with your "conscious brain" so that your "subconscious" could shoot your arrows for you. Dear Oh dear! I am glad that I was not anywhere near your vicinity. It's the Chinese Whispers all over again. All those years ago Al Henderson wrote with such great insight about subconscious competence and this is how it has become distorted is it? The interpretation now seems to be one of subverting the subconscious by thinking of something else. Is this why modern GBR target archers are smiling and "high-fiving" when they shoot a blue...because they were planning there next tropical holiday at the time their subconscious made the shot? LOL. I would also suggest, from your general question that in future it might be an idea not to try and multi task and, either think about making a shot or think about something else but in either event try and engage the whole brain!

It is apparent and you admit that you have conjured this question using half a brain so you will easily understand why I will not dignify it with an answer.
 

Hidden Hippo

New member
I would never advise anyone to take up archery as a professional athlete. As a young person, by the time you make it then get dropped, you could be 10 to 15 years behind anyone of your age with any type of professional career. Archery in this country is little more than a hobby.


I know some people on this forum are not fans of the National Series, but they are doing something right. It would be nice to actually get into one from time to time without having to go on a waiting list though :)
Prize money, I have often regretted taking up a sport with so little on offer, and even having to pay to get trophies engraved is like a punishment for coming 1st. But for sponsored shoots that have the backing of the big manufacturers, the UK might struggle I think.
This is part of the problem - what attraction is there for someone if they're told "you can put in the hours, sacrifice all sorts, but you'll still need to work 9-5 to live"? If you compare that to the US model, where winners can be walking away with 5 figures after contingncy payments are made, there's a lot more to be competitive about.

I think the National Series has shown there is desire for such a competitive event with a money prize. Given its success and ability to attract sponsors, it doesn't seem to be too wild a leap to be able to say the same may hold for an indoor shoot, either Vegas/Nimes style or AGBNS style. I for one would love to go to a Nimes style event in the UK - exhibition hall somewhere accessible, trade show, competition and H2H with some not insignificant prize money on offer would, in my opinion, be quite a draw.
 

Eluned

Member
But is the so called "National Series" really facilitating a competitive ethos back into UK target archery tournaments? Is it encouraging a development of coaching skills and knowledge? I think not. It is merely an extension of the walled mentality of the PU, which is hardly surprising given that this was the clique that initiated and promoted it. How does being placed onto waiting lists for a once a year experience promote a personal investment and commitment to the sport. How many "Swansea Harriers" are being ignored and trampled over by this process. The whole of the available gene pool needs to be able to access the tournament structure and participate or the subjective, prescriptive and nepotistic practices of the past will continue to write the script for the fate of the sport.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
It is apparent and you admit that you have conjured this question using half a brain so you will easily understand why I will not dignify it with an answer.
Ha, Ha, Ha but so sad, I was quite pleased with 638 and no dogs or dog walkers were harmed - Your reply was nothing more that I expected all hot air and a deflection from the question. Yet again no I ideas just going over the same old.
 

Hidden Hippo

New member
But is the so called "National Series" really facilitating a competitive ethos back into UK target archery tournaments? Is it encouraging a development of coaching skills and knowledge? I think not. It is merely an extension of the walled mentality of the PU, which is hardly surprising given that this was the clique that initiated and promoted it. How does being placed onto waiting lists for a once a year experience promote a personal investment and commitment to the sport. How many "Swansea Harriers" are being ignored and trampled over by this process. The whole of the available gene pool needs to be able to access the tournament structure and participate or the subjective, prescriptive and nepotistic practices of the past will continue to write the script for the fate of the sport.
By that logic, how many "Swansea Harriers" does the London Marathon ignore by virtue of the ballot system? I've tried a number of times to get a spot in the London Marathon but haven't managed - that wouldn't preclude me from a qualifying time, just a qualifying time from that event. Archers have many opportunities to achieve qualifying and ranking scores (supporting entry into AGBNS if ranked highly) without necessarily travelling all over as Whitehart has already pointed out.

The AGBNS has in my opinion, based on frequent over-subscription, demonstrably shown there is desire to participate in competitive shoots with financial rewards. 3DAUK this weekend also appears to have been a success. I would argue that the next step for a national tournament structure would be to create a similarly subscribed indoor event with some decent incentives. I'd be more than happy to lend time and support to getting such an event up and running if others would be keen.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
This is part of the problem - what attraction is there for someone if they're told "you can put in the hours, sacrifice all sorts, but you'll still need to work 9-5 to live"? If you compare that to the US model, where winners can be walking away with 5 figures after contingncy payments are made, there's a lot more to be competitive about.
Oh... I agree, but I think 5 years to a Masters degree is time better spent than 5 years to a silver medal at the Olympics. That said, to take archery forward the destination needs to be known. Archery needs a full design brief not a 2 year plan or 5 year plan. Without one Uk archery will be like ducks on a duck pond with everyone trying to do their own thing and getting nowhere.
 

Eluned

Member
Ha, Ha, Ha but so sad, I was quite pleased with 638 and no dogs or dog walkers were harmed - Your reply was nothing more that I expected all hot air and a deflection from the question. Yet again no I ideas just going over the same old.
If I keep saying the "same old" it would be because my understanding of things remains consistent and accurate. I also have to keep repeating the "same old" because there really does seem to be a comprehension problem amongst a great portion of the Apologists and their up to date contemporaries; "Apologists who cannot any longer escape the fact that the AGB blue chip programme has been a disaster. I also have to keep repeating the "same old" because the "same old BS continues to be pushed by wannabe authorities of the sport in posts on this forum. If you actually gave the attention to my posts of the past, that your comment suggests, you would be very aware that I have, on many occasions, pointed out that the infrastructure already exists for a proper and inclusive national tournament. Now if the outcomes of those County and Regional tournaments fed into a National Series type of competition structure then you would have something that is;-

1/ Inclusive of all those who pay AGB, and Region and County and Club fees rather than just those who are invited or who get lucky enough to have their entry forms chosen.

2/ A competition structure that is national.

3/ A competition structure that gives the whole of the AGB gene pool; such as it is; the opportunity to take the sport forward in terms of performance and coaching.

4/ A competition structure that properly facilitates the progression of target archery performance and coaching from the grass roots up.

5/ A competition structure that addresses the need of a national / international and Olympic competitive sport to have an inclusive domestic national competition structure that potentially engages all the membership in the UK.

After all those many years of coaching development policies run by AGB, we read on the pages of this forum of an archery retailer who states that the way he practices his archery shot is to distract his conscious brain by thinking about AIUK posts so that his subconscious can shoot his arrows. Did you learn this technique from an AGB qualified coach or did some part of your brain, (like the Id), come up with it yourself? Do you coach this technique to any of the youngsters that you have previously informed us that you allow to use your facilities at the shop?
 
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