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Discuss AGB in the news for the wrong reasons: "Sexual assault complaint made against coach" at the General Archery Discussion & News within Archery Interchange Forums; FPP is a step in the right direction, but it won't completely avoid issues like ...
  1. #79
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    FPP is a step in the right direction, but it won't completely avoid issues like this. I'm from Spain, and Spain has been using FPP for selecting the national team for a few years (4 or so, I think). The system is clearly inspired by the Korean and American Teams. There are several selection events, with several 720 rounds plus individual matches on each one. You get points for position, for high scores, and for winning matches. At the end of the selection events, the highest four form the national team.

    The spanish archery federation also has the use of a training field and several residing places in a sports center for high performance athletes in Madrid. This is where the coach of the national team trains them. Training there is voluntary, you may simply go to the selection shoots and get you spot on the national team without ever going there. But the fact is that being in the sports center lets you concentrate in archery in a way that being outside doesn't. You have a place to live for free, coaches, a medical team to monitor you, access to a training field 24x7, access to other sports facilities(gyms, swimming pools, etc), physical coaches who can design a training plan for you... If you are at that center you can simply concentrate on training full time. That is not the kind of thing that you are going to have at your local club (or at least, most clubs don't have). There are athletes in the national team right now that don't reside in the sports center, but they are few.

    So in the end, an athlete who resides in the national training center is still vulnerable to pressure. Not everyone is going to be able to train outside at the level required, and the athlete will know that leaving the performance center may very well mean leaving high performance archery.

    In the end you can look at organizations that have had similar problems, and the main issue is one of transparency and accountability. What goes on at those centers should visible to the public, and inappropiate behaviour should have consequences.
    Eluned likes this.





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  3. #80
    In the Blue ianB's Avatar
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    FPP is a step in the right direction, but it won't completely avoid issues like this. I'm from Spain, and Spain has been using FPP for selecting the national team for a few years (4 or so, I think). The system is clearly inspired by the Korean and American Teams. There are several selection events, with several 720 rounds plus individual matches on each one. You get points for position, for high scores, and for winning matches. At the end of the selection events, the highest four form the national team.


    Dear Mr. Zombie_Feynman.

    I don't like or think this type of system works. 1. The people with the most time and money have a distinct advantage.

    MB qualification
    3 Fita + 1 Fita or 1 York at WR status shoots anywhere. (Qualifying scores to be determined) Can be changed to suit.
    All MB’s shall have an invitation to the International Trials where target positions will be drawn from a hat on the morning of the shoot
    The International trials and mini trials will be held at a central location. The venue will be determined on Jan 1 each year.
    The top 10 ladies from the Trials shall be invited to attend a mini trials. Target positions drawn from a hat
    The top 10 gentlemen from the Trials shall be invited to attend a mini trials. Target positions drawn from a hat.
    The Top 3/4 Ladies will make up the british team
    The Top 3/4 gents will make up the british team
    It will be hoped that should any member of the British team who is ill or they determine that their shooting form has lapsed should recuse themselves and give up their position to no’s 4/5 at the mini trials. By doing this the person who rules themselves ‘not fit’ will retain their position for the next international shoot when they confirm they are fit. This will keep all top ten archers on their toes. It will be honest. It will build a stronger team.

    None of the above set in stone.

    ian bayley

    - - - Updated - - -

    FPP is a step in the right direction, but it won't completely avoid issues like this. I'm from Spain, and Spain has been using FPP for selecting the national team for a few years (4 or so, I think). The system is clearly inspired by the Korean and American Teams. There are several selection events, with several 720 rounds plus individual matches on each one. You get points for position, for high scores, and for winning matches. At the end of the selection events, the highest four form the national team.


    Dear Mr. Zombie_Feynman.

    I don't like or think this type of system works. 1. The people with the most time and money have a distinct advantage.

    MB qualification
    3 Fita + 1 Fita or 1 York at WR status shoots anywhere. (Qualifying scores to be determined) Can be changed to suit.
    All MBís shall have an invitation to the International Trials where target positions will be drawn from a hat on the morning of the shoot
    The International trials and mini trials will be held at a central location. The venue will be determined on Jan 1 each year.
    The top 10 ladies from the Trials shall be invited to attend a mini trials. Target positions drawn from a hat
    The top 10 gentlemen from the Trials shall be invited to attend a mini trials. Target positions drawn from a hat.
    The Top 3/4 Ladies will make up the british team
    The Top 3/4 gents will make up the british team
    It will be hoped that should any member of the British team who is ill or they determine that their shooting form has lapsed should recuse themselves and give up their position to noís 4/5 at the mini trials. By doing this the person who rules themselves Ďnot fití will retain their position for the next international shoot when they confirm they are fit. This will keep all top ten archers on their toes. It will be honest. It will build a stronger team.

    None of the above set in stone.

    ian bayley

  4. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianB View Post
    I don't like or think this type of system works. 1. The people with the most time and money have a distinct advantage.
    It's certainly not perfect, and may have some advantages/disadvantages over your proposal. But the main point was that the archers at the national training centers still have an advantage over the people outside, and that means that the coaches and managers still have power over the resident athletes. So FPP is not going to make abuse dissappear. It's certainly a step in the right direction, gives the archers more control over their careers, but you still need to change how things at lilleshall work or this will happen again.

  5. #82
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    Hi Zombie and thank you for your posts above. There seems to be 2 salient issues that are being run in parallel with regard to the portrait of the way things are at Lillishal painted by thinblueline. The first is with regard to the alleged behaviour of a coach and the second is regard to the culture within which that behaviour occurred. It is a given that there are individuals at large who will take advantage of their positions and that is why we take measures and put into place policies and protocols that are designed to inhibit if not completely eliminate the potential for such behaviour. This latter comes under the culture within which an organisation operates and you are absolutely right, imho, to point to the need for transparency and accountability as important ingredients required within a culture that is genuinely concerned to protect and defend its members from abuses of power and privilege. The empowerment of members / athletes is also a factor. One of the real pluses with regard to FPP is that it does empower the athlete in that they would achieve their position as a right not as a consequence of patronage.

    Of course there will be advantages to accessing a properly organised and administered high performance unit, they would become immediately redundant if there was not but the options of accessing it should be based upon the merit of demonstrated performance. (That is not to say that the facilities should not also be made available to all members of the organisation by arrangement and resources permitting).

    I do not think that anyone here is claiming that FPP will make abuse disappear but it is a hugely important step in the direction of an honest competitive sporting environment that is transparent in its administration and which empowers athletes and members.

  6. #83
    In the Gold Corax67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluned View Post
    No, Corax, Munsterman's point is myopic and he chooses to only focus upon one specific incident within the whole picture. Munsterman does not, for instance, focus at all upon the issues within the picture painted by thinblueline concerning failures to properly follow protocols in such cases. Munsterman chooses also not to dwell upon the ability of coaches to determine selection / deselection as portrayed by thinblueline. Further, Munsterman simply discounts any consideration that any such failures might be institutionalised to the degree that it actually facilitates the probability of the kind of behaviour, that he does focus upon, occurring. For example, what happens in Vegas might stay in Vegas but where is the line between an understandable desire to retain a proper discretion and confidentiality within a training camp and enforced silence about behaviour that is undesirable?
    Eluned - Munsterman does indeed focus on one specific incident, the actual incident as reported by the BBC and which the OP posted creating this thread. That's not myopic in my opinion but rather is a focussed response to that issue. Admittedly it does not address all the issues you set out.

    It is undeniable that subsequent posts, especially those by thinblueline, have served to widen the debate by highlighting far greater failings by the hierarchy of AGB but those weren't part of the OP. That they are institutionalised ? People should be left to determine their own opinion as to that from whatever information and evidence becomes available as the investigation continues.

    FPP and its application as put forward by IanB would go a very long way towards providing a clearer & more transparent selection system but it is not infallible, neither is it guaranteed to be safe from such abuses of status as those documented in the OP.

    By it's very nature the coach/student relationship is one which, if not controlled with significant safeguards and reporting structures, is open to abuse - to succeed in any sport requires coaching, to be the best means you need the best coach, that means the chosen coach now holds significant power over the student. Time and time and time again we are seeing how this model has been a breeding ground historically for all manner of abuses and abusers across all sports.

    Were an outstanding coach to provide an ultimatum such as "Do as I tell you and keep your mouth shut or find another (inferior) coach" then what option does the student have if they truly desire to achieve their highest potential. Tragically it's how abusers act, by isolating and subjugating the abused, and the worst offenders are those devious enough to circumvent weak control and reporting measures.

    There are very few top level coaches, far fewer than can ever ensure an aspiring competitor has a pool to choose from, and that could easily inflate a coaches ego to the point where potential professional relationships might break down.

    Strong controls depend upon strong management implementing them which it sadly appears from the expanded commentary in this thread was not the case and may indeed still not be the case. Obviously this will need to be rapidly addressed.

    As for 'where is the line' between discretion and enforced silence? There should be no line since silence will only ever serve to give abusers room to manoeuvre and continue their heinous acts.



    Karl
    I meant to do that - honest ! !

  7. #84
    It's an X, it is no more. AIUK subscriber. Rik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corax67 View Post
    ...
    As for 'where is the line' between discretion and enforced silence? There should be no line since silence will only ever serve to give abusers room to manoeuvre and continue their heinous acts.

    Karl
    Yes. This.

    The problem being, if someone appears to be delivering...
    Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason.
    It's trap that organisations can fall into, even if they are not directly complicit.
    Eluned likes this.
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