Coincidence?

ianB

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Is it coincidence that the rise of the Korean archers just happened to be when all carbon
Arrows became available and F.I.T.A. changed the format in international competition?
 

Mormegil

Member
No.

The 1400 barrier has only been broken in competition once by a recurve archer and that was a Korean female. So the format was not a problem for them.

I don't see why carbon arrows would be a factor - it's not like the Koreans shoot significantly lighter draw weights than most archers.
 

Zombie_Feynman

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Koreans hold every outdoor record there is (i.e. the 1440 round, the record for 36 arrows at 30, 50, 60, 70 and 90, and the record for the 720 round).

Koreans dominates​ because archery is a professional sport there. They have many teams sponsored by companies and cities, and that means professional archers and coaches. In any other country there are only a few sponsored archers. They have hundreds.

They started this system at some time in the late 70s or early 80s, which is why they started dominating around the time of the Seoul Olympics (which is probably not a coincidence). This coincides with the change to carbon arrows, but they would have dominated with aluminum arrows all the same.
 

bimble

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if anything, the change of international format (presumably you meant to the h2h system?) has hindered Korean dominance as it allows a archer who might get 'on a roll' for a couple of ends to more easily beat a higher ranked archer. How often at events such as the Olympics, World Cups do we see Korean archers locking out the top spots in qualifying, but not managing to go on and take all the medals.

Long format matches will always favour the "better" archer over short matches. Hell, I've seen a longbow drop their first arrow in the dead centre of the target at 70m before... would have beaten me with my compound in a one arrow shoot-off. But over a longer match (+2 arrows), I would have won.
 

Marcus37

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Long format matches will always favour the "better" archer over short matches. Hell, I've seen a longbow drop their first arrow in the dead centre of the target at 70m before... would have beaten me with my compound in a one arrow shoot-off. But over a longer match (+2 arrows), I would have won.
To be honest a single arrow shoot off could in theory go either way no matter the bow styles involved, getting close to that X is as much luck as it is skill in that type of shooting, i as fairly new to the sport compound archer, could beat the highest ranked compound archer in the world purely on luck in that situation,but loose horribly in say a 15 arrow Indoor format. So I'm with you on this point.

I don't see that the arrow type makes that much difference, a expert archer can win with either carbon or aluminium or at a push wood in some cases.
 

ianB

New member
The time frame fits too well to be coincidence. World championship events were shot over four days. The weather was changeable sometimes cool and most with some wind. In the WC at York and Grenoble 71 & 73 shooting metal arrows it blew and blew. It wasn't until 20 years later that the Koreans came into the fray after the introduction of lighter carbon arrows and shorter rounds. Today above 8kph they are calling a strong wind. Remember the team that shot with rucksacks on their backs recently to add stability.
ian bayley
 

bimble

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Today above 8kph they are calling a strong wind. Remember the team that shot with rucksacks on their backs recently to add stability.
ian bayley
That was the Colombian lady compound team at the 2013 World Champs in Turkey... it was gusting 40mph winds, which I think we can all agree counts as strong winds. The lady compound semifinal scores (this is the semifinals of the World Champs) were 105-107 and 79-88... out of a possible 150.

And as the Koreans weren't even present at the World Champs in 71 or 73 who knows how they might have gotten on. Though when they did first appear (79) they won two gold medals out of a possible two (they only sent ladies)
 

Zombie_Feynman

New member
Correlation does not equal causation. There is nothing special about koreans that makes them less likely to be successful with aluminium arrows. They are not shooting with less draw weight than the average. As bimble said before, the matchplay actually plays against them. If we went back to the days of shooting FITAs over several days they would actually win more medals than now, not less, and you only have to see the results of recent world championships to realize that.

As context, just look at the results of the british target championships in 2014 (which is the last year they shoot a 1440 round) http://www.archerygb.org/tools/documents/btc2014results-%5B17335%5D.pdf , and compare them with a championship which may be the national championship of Korea (depending on how well google translate works :) ) https://www.archery.or.kr/archer/ga...o?gmId=AR009&gmYear=2016&gmMth=AR001&initGb=Y . In the UK there was exactly one archer who shot more than 1300, and only in one of his rounds. In Korea there were 113. Now, what makes you think that shooting several 1440 rounds is going to make that difference smaller rather than larger? I'm pretty sure that Korea would be very happy to move to a format with long rounds and no matches.

There is no secret to Korea's dominance. They have professional teams, and no one else does.
 

ianB

New member
Correlation does not equal causation. There is nothing special about koreans that makes them less likely to be successful with aluminium arrows. They are not shooting with less draw weight than the average. As bimble said before, the matchplay actually plays against them. If we went back to the days of shooting FITAs over several days they would actually win more medals than now, not less, and you only have to see the results of recent world championships to realize that.

As context, just look at the results of the british target championships in 2014 (which is the last year they shoot a 1440 round) http://www.archerygb.org/tools/documents/btc2014results-[17335].pdf , and compare them with a championship which may be the national championship of Korea (depending on how well google translate works :) ) https://www.archery.or.kr/archer/ga...o?gmId=AR009&gmYear=2016&gmMth=AR001&initGb=Y . In the UK there was exactly one archer who shot more than 1300, and only in one of his rounds. In Korea there were 113. Now, what makes you think that shooting several 1440 rounds is going to make that difference smaller rather than larger? I'm pretty sure that Korea would be very happy to move to a format with long rounds and no matches.
There is no secret to Korea's dominance. They have professional teams, and no one else does.
Dear Mr. Zombie_Feynman,

Their secret is that 99% of all archers on this forum and elswhere believe that they are unbeatable. And while you all have these thoughts in the back of your heads, they are.

ian bayley
 

Mormegil

Member
Dear Mr. Zombie_Feynman,

There secret is that 99% of all archers on this forum and elswhere believe that they are unbeatable. And while you all have these thoughts in the back of your heads, they are.

ian bayley
They aren't unbeatable. But my undead colleague is correct. Archers who have to balance training against earning enough to eat/sleep will always be at a disadvantage to archers who are paid by Hyundai to professionally represent the company by shooting arrows. Particularly when they maintain a large pool of professional archers.

When most countries compete in a World Cup they are picking from maybe 6 or 7 archers (possibly less) to form a team of 3. Look at how deep Korea's bench is. They could have their 1st and 2nd round picks all get food poisoning the day before they fly out and still be able to field a medal winning team.
 

ianB

New member
They aren't unbeatable. But my undead colleague is correct. Archers who have to balance training against earning enough to eat/sleep will always be at a disadvantage to archers who are paid by Hyundai to professionally represent the company by shooting arrows. Particularly when they maintain a large pool of professional archers.

When most countries compete in a World Cup they are picking from maybe 6 or 7 archers (possibly less) to form a team of 3. Look at how deep Korea's bench is. They could have their 1st and 2nd round picks all get food poisoning the day before they fly out and still be able to field a medal winning team.
Dear Mr. Mormegil,
Good to hear that at least there's one part of the Commonwealth that still has some fire in its belly.

ian bayley
 

bimble

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Dear Mr. Zombie_Feynman,

Their secret is that 99% of all archers on this forum and elswhere believe that they are unbeatable. And while you all have these thoughts in the back of your heads, they are.

ian bayley
Anyone who watched the recurve finals from Shanghai will know that they, by which I mean the entire team, can have a bad day, or the fact that the gents took until 2012 to win an individual Olympic gold medal... but to suggest that the reason they usually have four archers in the top 5 after qualifying is due to people "thinking" they're unbeatable, as opposed to the fact they can score very heavily, is nonsense.

Everyone knows they can be beaten, but unless they're having a bad day you will have to be shooting 28s, 29s and 30s to do it.
 

ianB

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Anyone who watched the recurve finals from Shanghai will know that they, by which I mean the entire team, can have a bad day, or the fact that the gents took until 2012 to win an individual Olympic gold medal... but to suggest that the reason they usually have four archers in the top 5 after qualifying is due to people "thinking" they're unbeatable, as opposed to the fact they can score very heavily, is nonsense.

Everyone knows they can be beaten, but unless they're having a bad day you will have to be shooting 28s, 29s and 30s to do it.
Dear Mr. Bimble,

It is not nonsense. Read some of the comments on this forum. Even if you were shooting 28 29 30's, if you had it ingrained in you by the culture around
you believing that because the Koreans are 'proffessional' and have depth as well, they have an advantage.

ian bayley
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
Dear Mr. Zombie_Feynman,

Their secret is that 99% of all archers on this forum and elswhere believe that they are unbeatable. And while you all have these thoughts in the back of your heads, they are.

ian bayley
I disagree, there are many examples of the S Koreans losing H2H matches.

If we went back to a 1440 format then most countries would have to raise their game a lot, but as has been said the 70m & H2H brings a level of uncertainty just because you are top of the rankings is no guarantee of a medal.

Now if it was a question of who has the best archers then a 1440 is considered the best test by the S Koreans and why their National championships uses this format not the Olympic format.
 

bimble

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Dear Mr. Bimble,

It is not nonsense. Read some of the comments on this forum. Even if you were shooting 28 29 30's, if you had it ingrained in you by the culture around
you believing that because the Koreans are 'proffessional' and have depth as well, they have an advantage.

ian bayley
the only person to have used the word "unbeatable" is you... everyone else has just said they are dominant (which they have been) and that you have to shoot very well to beat them (which is true), and that the H2H format used makes it easier to beat them (again, true).
 

Zombie_Feynman

New member
the only person to have used the word "unbeatable" is you... everyone else has just said they are dominant (which they have been) and that you have to shoot very well to beat them (which is true), and that the H2H format used makes it easier to beat them (again, true).
And that carbon arrows do not give them any advantage, which was the original point of the thread. Archers and coaches whose job is archery is their advantage.
 

eljetico

Supporter
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I think that the South Korean culture is an advantage, and as the head coach said on a clip prior to Rio, they employ resources and training/development methods that no-one else is using, or indeed, can use.

The ROW is catching up slowly, though
 
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