Counties and Regions membership

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Am I seeing things:

Just reading my new copy of the archerygb magazine.
Page 62, Membership
"Change of Focus"

"Archery GB has been looking at Law 22 which says "each club is normally expected to join the county and region in which it is located."

"As of 1st October 2016, except under exceptional circumstances, all clubs and all archerygb members (INCLUDING DIRECT MEMBERS) will be EXPECTED to join their county and region"
Note, the CAPITALIZATION is mine, no the magazines!

NO WAY JOZE!!!!!

I became a direct member several years ago because I fundamentally disagreed with what the county and region that my club are in (and I live in) are doing and are run.
What is the point of being a direct member, if you are EXPECTED to join the county and region anyway?

The article attempts to clarify the ambiguous term "normally" as in "each club is NORMALLY expected to join"
Instead they've substituted one ambiguous term (normally) for another ("expected").

What does "expected" mean?
It doesnt say "MUST".

They can "expect" me to join C&R, but I'll be doing the "UNexpected"

I'd rather quit ArcheryGB altogether than join C&R!!!

Surely they can't just CHANGE law 22 without an EGM or something?
I dont remember voting for this, and sure as eggs is eggs, I damn well wouldnt have done!

Can I challenge this legally?
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
This sounds to me like it may be fall out from the NI situation, where the membership of the region plummeted, because of, well, politics. But it sounds like the wrong response. You can't force people to associate with an organisation they disagree with.

What it may do is give rise to more "virtual" clubs with no declared geographic location which affiliate with whatever county/region they feel like...

<edit> sent a mail to AGB asking for clarification.
 

tzadmin

Supporter
Supporter
Law 22 has not changed; all AGB are saying is that they will enforce it more consistently unless there is good reason otherwise. The exceptions are supposed to be for rare cases that need to affiliate without a fixed location; if I recall correctly, Per Ardua, the RAF 'club', used to be one such.
As to why now, I can't say, but as a member of a Regional Committee I'm (obviously) all in favour. Counties and regions both have formal governance responsibilities under the AGB Mem and Arts, and most of them do useful things that would cost AGB more if they were run centrally. All the folk I've met at county and regional level are volunteers trying to do something useful for their members. They depend heavily on their tiny membership fees to keep running, and that's what Law 22 is for.

So direct membership is not intended to bypass the club/county/region structure; all you get for it (more or less) is an individual vote at the AGB AGM and a guarantee that you get AGB literature directly. Some folk (me, once upon a time) may also find it more sensible if they move about a lot.

Turning to your other point though; if you don't like the way your county is being run, the idea is that as a member, you can get in there and do something about it. Go to an AGM. Vote. Get yourself on a committee where you can make things better - that kind of thing.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
tzadmin -
Law 22 was specific about clubs and never mentioned anything about direct members. In fact, more specifically, the article in ArcheryUK states that if "club members elected not to join their county or region, they become direct members instead"

I've no objection to counties and regions doing what they want to do and allowing people to be members of these organisations. I personally dont see what the county and region of my area do for me and why I should be forced to be a member to achieve membership of a separate organisation. Why I, along with many others who dont go to county and/or regional championships are paying for the few who do (events run at a loss, supported by the non attending majority)

Why not make county and regional membership optional for all? That way, if they are such wonderful organisations doing great things for the grass roots archer, then membership numbers wont be a problem.

You're a member of a regional committee, so of course you think they're wonderful and that we should all pay to support your efforts.

Really, as an insider, convince me! What do counties and regions do for the grass roots archer? What are the useful things the region and county volunteers do for people like me? I can see what I get for my ArcheryGB membership.
Formal governance you say? Whats that?
Championships? Let the people who attend them pay for them.
Coaching sessions? Again, let the people who attend them pay for them.
Expensive year bars and 3 figure honorarium payments for the committee? Very worthy.
Collecting subs to maintain huge 6 figure reserves. Equally worthy.
Anything else?

As for change from the inside, I've been there and tried that. The committees that I've been involved with, in general, are run by the minority of stick in the mud's that created the current set of conditions and therefore enjoying the status quo were understandably resistant to change.

So, my permitted alternative was to withhold my membership from the organisation(s) that I disagreed with.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Law 22 has not changed; all AGB are saying is that they will enforce it more consistently unless there is good reason otherwise. The exceptions are supposed to be for rare cases that need to affiliate without a fixed location; if I recall correctly, Per Ardua, the RAF 'club', used to be one such.
As to why now, I can't say, but as a member of a Regional Committee I'm (obviously) all in favour. Counties and regions both have formal governance responsibilities under the AGB Mem and Arts, and most of them do useful things that would cost AGB more if they were run centrally. All the folk I've met at county and regional level are volunteers trying to do something useful for their members. They depend heavily on their tiny membership fees to keep running, and that's what Law 22 is for.

So direct membership is not intended to bypass the club/county/region structure; all you get for it (more or less) is an individual vote at the AGB AGM and a guarantee that you get AGB literature directly. Some folk (me, once upon a time) may also find it more sensible if they move about a lot.

Turning to your other point though; if you don't like the way your county is being run, the idea is that as a member, you can get in there and do something about it. Go to an AGM. Vote. Get yourself on a committee where you can make things better - that kind of thing.
Been there, done that. Probably don't want to deal with that kind of #### again, especially in this location. I don't have any real investment at the regional level (no counties here)...

So the other option would be to join a club in a different county/region and pay dues there.

Frankly, if AGB isn't intending to police its afilliated organisations, why should the membership do it for them?
 

tzadmin

Supporter
Supporter
Counties and regions membership - continued

tzadmin -
Law 22 was specific about clubs and never mentioned anything about direct members. In fact, more specifically, the article in Archery UK states that if "club members elected not to join their county or region, they become direct members instead"
I gave my current understanding on the question of law 22's validity. But I agree that in the 2016 version 'Law 22' does not make any reference to direct members; looks like I recalled the membership guidance rather than the mem and arts. Sorry about that.
But really, if you want to challenge the interpretation, you need to take it up with AGB.

tzadmin -
What do counties and regions do for the grass roots archer?
This is off topic for the original question. But there's a (non-exhaustive) list of regional functions for SCAS at http://bit.ly/whatSCASdoes. Most regions could say something similar. It's not hard to find something on the list for the 'grass roots'.

I don't know of a comparable list for counties.
 

ieuan_johns

New member
Why not make county and regional membership optional for all? That way, if they are such wonderful organizations doing great things for the grass roots archer, then membership numbers wont be a problem.
Because people are tight and selfish. The majority will think to themselves what do I get back personally and realize that the vast majority of it they would still get if someone else paid for it, it's really down to peoples individual conscience then whether they feel like chipping in or not and frankly if you have faith in the majority doing that then I wonder how much time you actually spend with people.

You will end up with those hoping for county selection and/or coaching help plus a small number of those who feel that they should pay contributing and everyone else freeloading.

If you have any doubts over this then try starting up a communal fund at your club for something like beginners equipment and don't personally ask anyone to contribute (just put a blanket email out or something). Everyone knows that the club and hence they benefit from new starters/members one way or another, but I doubt more than 50% of the club would even consider contributing. Hell we all know plenty of people who wouldn't pay their national fees or get their own insurance to compensate for that if they thought they could get away with it.

If your county is not doing it's job properly then the right way to deal with it is to hold it accountable, not to withdraw funding.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
This is off topic for the original question. But there's a (non-exhaustive) list of regional functions for SCAS at http://bit.ly/whatSCASdoes. Most regions could say something similar. It's not hard to find something on the list for the 'grass roots'.

.
Ok, its a bit off topic, but goes to the original root cause

Maybe I'm unlucky in living in an area where the county and region are below par.

Even so, hoping not to offend any SCAS members, but briefly looking through the document that you gave a link to, I'm not overly impressed,

SCAS gives loans (gives the members their money back, or rather gives some members money from lots of other members)
SCAS gives counties a say in what they do - nice
They set their own policies - nice
They have a website - nice
They have a directory of clubs - theres lots of these
They give themselves "brooches" - nice
Training of judges - train judges like coaches, self financed
Coaching - let the coachee pay for what they get
Competition - let the participant pay for what they get
Records - Ah, a regional job!

Funding - ?1.50, yes I'm definitely in the wrong area. My region is something like ?7 increased annually without fail. They have approx ?90,000 in "reserves", pay committee members "honorarium" ?150 p/a on top of expenses, no coaching conferences, no adult coaching, championships run at a loss every year. No inter-region adult competitions. At the last AGM 5 people turned up, only 3 actual committee members (despite the ?150)

- - - Updated - - -

I gave my current understanding on the question of law 22's validity. But I agree that in the 2016 version 'Law 22' does not make any reference to direct members; looks like I recalled the membership guidance rather than the mem and arts. Sorry about that.
But really, if you want to challenge the interpretation, you need to take it up with AGB.
I've been given someone to contact at ArcheryGB, so I've whizzed an email off to them yesterday.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
What it may do is give rise to more "virtual" clubs with no declared geographic location which affiliate with whatever county/region they feel like...
Hi Rik,

You say "more" virtual clubs. Are there any already?

I could start one, I have the resources.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Rik,

You say "more" virtual clubs. Are there any already?

I could start one, I have the resources.
I've seen some. Though groups like Scottish Graduate Bowmen were more aimed at continuing to shoot in the region's competitions, while the former students were geographically dispersed round the country. Thing is, if a club doesn't have a ground, where is it located? Answer: wherever it wants to be.
Drawback: at least some members have to afilliate through the club, to have it recognised by AGB.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
I've seen some. Though groups like Scottish Graduate Bowmen were more aimed at continuing to shoot in the region's competitions, while the former students were geographically dispersed round the country. Thing is, if a club doesn't have a ground, where is it located? Answer: wherever it wants to be.
Drawback: at least some members have to afilliate through the club, to have it recognised by AGB.
I'm thinking British-Internet-Archery.co.uk
Location: on the internet
Annual Membership ?1
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I'm thinking the internet can do more to help archers progress, should they wish to.
Connecting people who would otherwise never meet or perhaps rarely, but only after spending time and money on the requirements of finding a suitable venue.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
I'm kind of surprised that no-one ever suggested setting up an AIUK club...
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
I've had a response from Freddie Collier at Archery GB

Thank you for your e-mail.

The article in Archery UK explains the reasoning for the decision. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, as of 1 October, all Archery GB members will be expected to join the regional and county structure.

Kind Regards


To which I've responded

I believe that the exceptional circumstance is that Law 22 refers specifically to CLUBS and DIRECT members are by definition not members of clubs for the purposes of Archery GB membership.
My own ArcheryGB membership card does not have a club on it.

Therefore to say Law 22 covers direct members is wrong and illegal.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
The response to that should be interesting.
Thank you for getting back to me, unfortunately, Archery GB is not of the same opinion as you. As from 1 October, Direct Members will need to join their Counties and Regions.

Kind Regards

Freddie Collier


My response

Hi Freddie

Yes, well, that’s where your problem is, isn’t it.

You and archery gb have an opinion.

I’ve got the black and white wording of the society’s Law 22.

Have you read it? Do you know what it says?

Regards
 
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