Issue with Judge/Dress code/Line safety

ieuan_johns

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Hi all.

At a RS status competition this weekend several people (including myself) got spoken to by a judge (who has personal prior reputation in the area that I'd had no experience of despite being at a dozen or so tournaments he has officiated at) about dress code. The telling off went along the lines of "In future if you attend a UK record status or World Record Status tournament you might find that judges will ask you to change if you are not compliment with the dress code, we won't do anything about it now because we have started already but just to let you know for next time".

Now I have several issue with this.

Firstly my jeans were clearly black and not blue (and the same type/colour I have worn to every tournament in the past 2 years), something I pointed out to him politely only to be rudely told that it doesn't matter what my opinion on their colour is. That is a minor issue for me as clearly opinions may differ.

My biggest issue is that he chose to do this to at least half a dozen people during the course of the tournament, namely right before shooting was due to recommence after breaks for comfort/target moving. I can't say it effected my shooting too much, but several people, including a junior, were definitely put off and intimidated by it and it had a massive effect on the several ends following the conversations. This for me is a massive issue.

I don't know what the rules are regarding this, perhaps a judge has the right to say whatever they want whenever they want to a competitor but for me I shouldn't think that would be the case. I would hope that provided it was not an issue regarding safety or fair competition then any comment (assuming the competitor was not going to be told to change) should be reserved for after the end of shooting for the day.

Is there any official word on what the etiquette should be here?


One more thing that surprised me was due to the competition being a York/Hereford/Bristol but also including a National round in the afternoon, the national entrants had a round of sighter's to do before starting to score, which they did alone at the end of lunch. The surprise was that no signal of any kind was given to the rest of the competitors that shooting was commencing, no line call or whistle at all. It was my understanding that a line call/whistle was ALWAYS to be used to signify a live range on safety grounds.
 

bimble

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ahhhh, Welsh target judges just making up rules as they go along... sad to see some things still don't change. Though I do remember one year when they disqualified half a doz compounders in the Welsh Indoor for having perfectly legal scope apertures...
 

Timid Toad

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If the judge is who I think it is, he is the cause of much irritation and does not enjoy the support of his cohort but they seem not to have the b**ls to tell him where to get off. He has reduced a lady archer to tears over personal comments on her appearance I considered to be harassment. I do not shoot in Wales if I can help it.

If a judge speaks to you about something and you disagree, ask them to show you the relevant rule in his book. All judges carry them, and they even have the option of a Kindle or ebook. If they cannot, tell them where to shove it.... err sorry.... politely refuse to comply.

I myself have done this (over the height of a scope at imperial clout) and won, receiving a verbal apology.
 

ieuan_johns

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If the judge is who I think it is, he is the cause of much irritation and does not enjoy the support of his cohort but they seem not to have the b**ls to tell him where to get off. He has reduced a lady archer to tears over personal comments on her appearance I considered to be harassment. I do not shoot in Wales if I can help it.

If a judge speaks to you about something and you disagree, ask them to show you the relevant rule in his book. All judges carry them, and they even have the option of a Kindle or ebook. If they cannot, tell them where to shove it.... err sorry.... politely refuse to comply.

I myself have done this (over the height of a scope at imperial clout) and won, receiving a verbal apology.
From various comments about reputation it wouldn't surprise me if it is the same judge, pretty sure Bimble knows as well.

In this particular case what he was saying was actually fair enough by the word of the rules, if he genuinely saw my jeans as Blue then I don't know how I could argue that with him really other than saying they aren't so the rule book route wouldn't have helped unfortunately, though I've since heard he also complained about a recurve archers string serving being too close to the sight window a few weeks back, something that I'm sure isn't a rule outside of either the barebow class or field archery (judgement of distance etc.)
 

dell

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According to World Archery (http://www.worldarchery.org/Portals...retations/2015/Bk3_Ch20_Art20.1.1_Bp4_ENG.pdf) denim and jeans are not allowed in any colour.

This is an interpretation of the rules (which means that it was a clarification on an existing rule that was published in response to a request from a national federation) that was published on March, but I suppose that it has to be followed in any WRS since.
That only applies to International events, WRS shoots are not International events, so AGB rules apply for dress code, i.e. only blue jeans are banned.
from WA rules book one:
“International Events” are defined as:
Competition for World and Continental titles;
Competition for Olympic and Paralympic titles;
Competition for World Ranking;
Olympic and Paralympic Qualification Events (Continental Qualifying Tournaments);
Archery events of Major Event Organisations;
And any other Event for which World Archery is the ruling body or appoints technical officials;
 

bimble

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According to World Archery (http://www.worldarchery.org/Portals...retations/2015/Bk3_Ch20_Art20.1.1_Bp4_ENG.pdf) denim and jeans are not allowed in any colour.

This is an interpretation of the rules (which means that it was a clarification on an existing rule that was published in response to a request from a national federation) that was published on March, but I suppose that it has to be followed in any WRS since.
But this shoot, being a York (so not actually WRS, but merely UKRS), means that it's the GNAS rules that are being followed, and the wording is "Any colour garments may be worn with the exception of blue denim, olive drab and camouflage pattern". Though interesting to see that WA have clarified it BUT that rule does fall under the heading, "20.1.1. During the Olympic Games, World Championships and World Cup Events", which regular WRS events aren't part of.

As for the National sighters, I'm assuming they started on a whistle? (and if you didn't hear one, was it that you just didn't hear it or there wasn't one?) That's your warning, they're not going to start the sighters if people are hanging about on the range, and your normal 5 minute warning wouldn't occur until midway through the sighters' end. In which case you really should have already have worked out it was nearly time to shoot!
 

ieuan_johns

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According to World Archery (http://www.worldarchery.org/Portals...retations/2015/Bk3_Ch20_Art20.1.1_Bp4_ENG.pdf) denim and jeans are not allowed in any colour.

This is an interpretation of the rules (which means that it was a clarification on an existing rule that was published in response to a request from a national federation) that was published on March, but I suppose that it has to be followed in any WRS since.
That is actually very interesting, though I'm unsure on the relevance here.

Book 3, Chapter 20, Article 20.1.1, bullet point 4

The German Shooting Sport and Archery Federation (DSB) has requested aninterpretation on whether the prohibition against “denim” and “jeans” only prohibitsthe colour blue or if it prohibits denim or jeans of any colour (such as white or black)?

The Constitution and Rules Committee (“C&R”) finds the question presented to bewithin the terms of reference of the Target Archery Committee.C&R has determined that the following interpretation is not contrary to the existing rulesor Congress decisions.

Response from the Target Archery Committee:The rule provides that No denim, jeans or camouflage clothes may be worn nor anyoversize or baggy type pants or shorts”.It is the opinion of the Target Archery Committee that the terms “denim” and “jeans”refers to the type of material and that any color of denim or jeans is prohibited.C&R notes that this interpretation applies to International Events (see “Definitions”located in the Introduction at the beginning of Book 1 of the Rule Book) involving targetarchery.

World Archery Target Archery Committee, 6 March 2015Approved by the World Archery C&R Committee, 26 March 2015
Book 3, Chapter 20, Article 20.1 refers to this:

20.1. World Championships are majestic occasions, honoured by the attendance of many dignitaries. All athletes, Team Managersand Officials participating in the Opening and Closing Ceremonies should be dressed in the uniform of their respective MemberAssociation.

20.1.1. During the Olympic Games, World Championships and World Cup Events, athletes and team officials shall dress in sports clothing onthe field of play.
* All members of one team by category shall be dressed in the same team uniform. The teams of one country may wear differentdesign and colour uniforms. Team officials may wear a different style but should wear the same colours and should be easilyidentified as the official of their team;
* Women shall wear dresses, skirts, divided skirts, shorts (these may not be shorter than the athlete’s fingertips when the arms andfingers are extended at the athlete’s side) or trousers, and blouses or tops (covering the front and back of the body, be fixed overeach shoulder while still covering the midriff when she is at full draw);
* Men shall wear trousers or shorts (these may not be shorter than the athlete’s fingertips when the arms and fingers are extendedat the athlete’s side) and long or short sleeved shirts (covering the midriff when at full draw);
* No denim, jeans or camouflage clothes may be worn nor any oversize or baggy type pants or shorts;
* During the Team and Mixed Team match play competition the same colour and style shirt/blouse/top and the same colourpants/shorts/skirts shall be worn;
* Due to weather conditions, protective clothing such as sweaters, track suits, raingear, etc. may be worn following approval by theTechnical Delegate of the event or, in his absence, the Chairperson of the Tournament Judge Commission;
* Headwear is optional.

20.1.2. Sport shoes shall be worn by all athletes and officials except for disabled athletes when included on their classification card. Sportshoes may be different styles but shall cover the entire foot.

20.1.3. Athlete numbers are to be prominently displayed on the athlete’s quiver or thigh and be visible from behind the shooting line at alltimes while shooting is in progress.

20.1.4. At Olympic Games, World Championships and World Cup Events, all athletes shall have their name across the back on the shoulderarea in combination with the name of their country (or three letters acronym). Team officials shall have their country name on theback of their shirt. The name and function of the team official are optional.

20.1.5. Athletes and team officials shall conform to the dress regulations during the Official Practice
Which clearly states that it applies only to Olympic Games, World Championships and World Cup Events.

However the definition of "International Events" mentioned in the response would be:

“International Events” are defined as:Competition for World and Continental titles;Competition for Olympic and Paralympic titles;Competition for World Ranking;Olympic and Paralympic Qualification Events (Continental Qualifying Tournaments);Archery events of Major Event Organisations;And any other Event for which World Archery is the ruling body or appoints technical officials;
Which would seem a far wider scope. Even so would it be a wide enough scope to cover average WRS events? Certainly it doesn't cover Yorks.

Also even if it did, it clearly wasn't the rule being stated at the time.
 

ieuan_johns

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But this shoot, being a York (so not actually WRS, but merely UKRS), means that it's the GNAS rules that are being followed, and the wording is "Any colour garments may be worn with the exception of blue denim, olive drab and camouflage pattern". Though interesting to see that WA have clarified it BUT that rule does fall under the heading, "20.1.1. During the Olympic Games, World Championships and World Cup Events", which regular WRS events aren't part of.

As for the National sighters, I'm assuming they started on a whistle? (and if you didn't hear one, was it that you just didn't hear it or there wasn't one?) That's your warning, they're not going to start the sighters if people are hanging about on the range, and your normal 5 minute warning wouldn't occur until midway through the sighters' end. In which case you really should have already have worked out it was nearly time to shoot!
I didn't hear a whistle, neither did anyone else around me, though we were at the far end of the shooting line from the Nationals (50 yards away or so). At the time a lot of people were still milling around in advance of the equipment line even quite close to where they were shooting and clearly a lot of people were unaware that shooting had commenced. Being ready to shoot wasn't the issue, obviously as we saw what was going on everyone worked that out, my issue was more that there is were so many people in the vicinity of a live range who had no idea it was live.
 

bimble

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the safety distance on the shooting line from shooting is, (as we all know, yes??) 10yds, coming out to 20yds by the 100yd line. As useless as some of the target judges are, even they would probably ensure that people were in, and stayed in a place of safety whilst shooting is going on. And if people can miss that there's shooting going on, on the line... well... aren't we glad they're allowed to operate bows and arrows...
 

bimble

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Being a WRS I thought that WA rules would apply. My mistake :muted:
lol, don't worry, Ieuan did start off by saying it was a WRS shoot, what he meant was a Rose Status event, so a totally different rule book applies... only in archery, eh?? ;)
 

ieuan_johns

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lol, don't worry, Ieuan did start off by saying it was a WRS shoot, what he meant was a Rose Status event, so a totally different rule book applies... only in archery, eh?? ;)
Yeah apologies about that, I said WRS because the judge brought it up, my mistake.

Would all WRS events be shot under the no denim at all rules?
 

Johnh159

Member
Yeah apologies about that, I said WRS because the judge brought it up, my mistake.

Would all WRS events be shot under the no denim at all rules?
Rule 307 as updated in March 12 states:

(c) Members of the Society shooting and officiating at tournaments granted UK or WorldRecord Status by GNAS are required to wear clothing that is appropriate, clean, in goodcondition (ie not frayed or worn, either deliberately or by use) and conventional in styleand appearance.
In particular:
(i) Tops or shirts must cover the front and back of the body (including the midriffwhen at full draw), they must not be strapless and, for gentlemen, must includesleeves.
(ii) Any colour garments may be worn with the exception of blue denim, olive draband camouflage pattern.

I read from that is that denim can be worn at WRS events per GNAS rules.
Most entry forms refer to rule 307 and not a WA derivative.
 

Timid Toad

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The particular Welsh judge I'm talking about at the same shoot tore a woman to shreds as her top was "too pink" and a junior for have a Batman t-shirt.

I consider it both my and the judge's responsibility to know the rules. I expect them to be applied fairly and equally.
 

bimble

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[/COLOR]I read from that is that denim can be worn at WRS events per GNAS rules.
Most entry forms refer to rule 307 and not a WA derivative.
From what I remember, chances are they're still working off the old rule 307 where it's green/white and not any new WA directive! There is a part of me that now wants to get my #### in gear and get to a shoot in Wales just to ask (cause I am bolshie enough) where in the rules anything they complain about is... ;)
 

Timid Toad

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By the way, was the judge in question still wearing his GNAS blazer, white shirt and tie instead of regulation uniform, as he was when I ran up against him?
 

ieuan_johns

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From what I remember, chances are they're still working off the old rule 307 where it's green/white and not any new WA directive! There is a part of me that now wants to get my #### in gear and get to a shoot in Wales just to ask (cause I am bolshie enough) where in the rules anything they complain about is... ;)
There is a temptation to take and analyse a picture of the outfit for colour balance, then wear them the same to the Glamorgan (assuming the same judges) to see what happens. :)

Anyway, the main intention of my post was to find out if there was any guidance on whether a judge can make comments to an archer about this kind of thing DURING a shoot or not as that was my major gripe. I get people can be fussy over appearance and while I think it's stupid I can see how it could be deemed against code (if not for colour then it could actually have failed the frayed edge rule). But if there was guidance that a judge shouldn't be putting an archer off for reasons not pertaining to safety etc. then that would have been useful to know.

I mean honestly, a couple of people were quite annoyed by this at the time (as opposed to me being very ###### off hearing about it later, didn't realise it wasn't just myself at the time) and I wouldn't be surprised if it put them off coming back.
 

Timid Toad

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They can speak to you at any time yes, but in my view it's bad form to do so. I was at a Fita event, but the judges "forgot" to do equipment inspection, and as far as I'm concerned clothing is equipment, so any issues should be flagged up then.
Some judges just like to irritate archers...
 

ieuan_johns

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They can speak to you at any time yes, but in my view it's bad form to do so. I was at a Fita event, but the judges "forgot" to do equipment inspection, and as far as I'm concerned clothing is equipment, so any issues should be flagged up then.
Some judges just like to irritate archers...
Yeah there wasn't an inspection here either, in fact I think I've only ever had equipment inspected twice and both were indoors.
 
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