line cutting query

ghound

Member
tophat.jpg Is it the hole made with the arrow or the arrow shaft that has to be cutting the line? Reason i ask is that i was thinking of using top hat points, but they are wider than the shafts by a few mm, so in theory the hole could be cutting the line but not the shaft?
 

buzz lite beer

Well-known member
score is determined by the position of the arrow shaft in the target not the size of any hole that may have been made. Rule 306 (iii)The value shall be determined by the position of the arrow shaft
 

ghound

Member
Thanks buzz, so it may even be a disadvantage using these points because they might push the line further away from the shaft.
 
T

the-poet

Guest
Most ace and X10 points are slightly wider.

I'd go for the best suited arrows regardless of points, I don't get enough line cutters for it to influence my equipment.
 

ghound

Member
Most ace and X10 points are slightly wider.

I'd go for the best suited arrows regardless of points, I don't get enough line cutters for it to influence my equipment.
Poet, for some reason i do seem to get a lot of cutters between the 8/9 on a 40cm target

- - - Updated - - -

Could be wrong but I didn't think you were allowed to have arrow tips wider than the shaft.
Yes i also read that somewhere raven
 

buzz lite beer

Well-known member
Yes some points by nature of their requirements to actually fit over an arrow shaft rather than inside them will be larger than the shafts (bulge points though internal fitting are also wider than the arrow shaft in a bid to reduce shafts from wearing out as quickly, if your arrows aren't where you'd like them to be don't blame the point size or arrow diameter, and don't become one of the very desperate archers who will claim higher values than the arrow is actually scoring, just practice a bit more :raspberry
 

Tuck

New member
For Longbow arrows the point shall not be greater diameter than the shaft at point of fitment. For recurve and compound it merely says that they shall not be of a form to unduly damage faces and targets.



Eat, Drink, Shoot, Enjoy.
 

mk1

It's an X
Supporter
Thanks buzz, so it may even be a disadvantage using these points because they might push the line further away from the shaft.

It is quite common for an arrow to be in a hole that that cuts into the line - as buzz says it is the position of the shaft that counts not the hole it has made - and so when calling or judging the arrow value you have to determine where the arrow shaft sits in relation to the line if it was reconstructed.
 

ghound

Member
if your arrows aren't where you'd like them to be don't blame the point size or arrow diameter, and don't become one of the very desperate archers who will claim higher values than the arrow is actually scoring, just practice a bit more :raspberry

lol, just wanting to stay within the rules and make sure i'm not disadvantaging myself, i don't need to be giving my hard earned points away !
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
if your arrows aren't where you'd like them to be don't blame the point size or arrow diameter, and don't become one of the very desperate archers who will claim higher values than the arrow is actually scoring, just practice a bit more :raspberry
thats what the judges are there to resolve ... well, that and being a source of free jelly babies! :)
 

archeryal

Member
Rule 11.1.7: diameter of the arrow shaft ... 9.3 mm ... tips. ... (points) may have a maximum diameter of 9.4 mm
We (judges in the U.S., or at least in Massachusetts) use a metal plate with a "U" shaped tester for the shaft and a hole for the points.
 

Riceburner

Active member
View attachment 2990 Is it the hole made with the arrow or the arrow shaft that has to be cutting the line? Reason i ask is that i was thinking of using top hat points, but they are wider than the shafts by a few mm, so in theory the hole could be cutting the line but not the shaft?
It's hardly 'a few mm'!! more like a fraction of a mm extra in diameter (I use them too). (before anyone jumps on us for breaking the rules!)
 

metalnwood

New member
I wouldnt think a slightly larger tip would make much difference at all to line cutters.

This assumes that the shaft follows the tip exactly perpendicular to the face of the target for the shaft to not be touching the hole.

Think about what you actually do when you are scoring line cutters. More times than not it's actually the target face not flat against the butt that determines if something is a line cutter. Push the target flat - which you don't and what is in could be out or vice versa.

Arrows dont go in straight, some are on angles, could be wind, could be tuning, could be having hit another arrow. On all these occasions a slightly bigger tip isnt what looses you a line cutter, just random circumstances.

It's not something I would really worry about :)
 

Discof

New member
I never thought I would get the chance to say this, but here goes: Size really does count. It always has been and always will be the position of the shaft itself for all of the reasons mentiioned. One thought though, why are we shooting with Knitting Pins today. Do the arrows really have to have such a small diameter? There are probably some technical reasons but considering that years ago XX75 shooters tried everything to be able to shoot X7's because of their much larger dia (we used to estimate an advantage of between 5 and 25 points for a full Fita) just imagine the improvement in scores with no extra effort if we went back to shooting Barge Poles(the old nick-name for X7s) today.
 

Tuck

New member
The use of 'knitting pins' is to reduce wind drift , with the heavier ones having better down range energy retention. Larger diameter ally arrows will be less accurate in real outdoor conditions.


I never thought I would get the chance to say this, but here goes: Size really does count. It always has been and always will be the position of the shaft itself for all of the reasons mentiioned. One thought though, why are we shooting with Knitting Pins today. Do the arrows really have to have such a small diameter? There are probably some technical reasons but considering that years ago XX75 shooters tried everything to be able to shoot X7's because of their much larger dia (we used to estimate an advantage of between 5 and 25 points for a full Fita) just imagine the improvement in scores with no extra effort if we went back to shooting Barge Poles(the old nick-name for X7s) today.
 

joetapley

New member
I never thought I would get the chance to say this, but here goes: Size really does count. It always has been and always will be the position of the shaft itself for all of the reasons mentiioned. One thought though, why are we shooting with Knitting Pins today. Do the arrows really have to have such a small diameter? There are probably some technical reasons but considering that years ago XX75 shooters tried everything to be able to shoot X7's because of their much larger dia (we used to estimate an advantage of between 5 and 25 points for a full Fita) just imagine the improvement in scores with no extra effort if we went back to shooting Barge Poles(the old nick-name for X7s) today.
Indoors
The reason for using thin, light carbon arrows is that for a given shot the carbon arrow will hit nearer the center than the equivalent heavy wider diameter aluminium arrows. The question then arises which of the two arrows with the same shot quality will have an edge closer to the target center and what is the relative consequence of a poor shot. For most archers the answer is that the thin carbon (or standard aluminium) arrow will in both scenarios give you more "line cutters" than the Barge Pole arrow. What you gain in a wider diameter you more than lose in the Barge Pole hitting further away from the target center.

Outdoors

Here wind drift comes into it and a wider arrow will lose speed faster than a thin arrow.
 
Top