Short rods pointing up?

feaviolp

New member
Hi,
I've read plenty of good info on archery-interchange but this is my first post so go easy :cheerful:

My question relates to balancing stabilisers. I've got a 30" long rod with 5" extender and 12" side rods with an AGF adjustable V-Bar. I've set the neutral balance just fine, 1 inch in front of the riser. But the only way to get the dynamic balance right is shifting weight up the riser, which is pretty obvious since the stabilsers are adding so much weight below the grip. So typically the solution is to add a top rod to balance it, but my question is, can I adjust the short rods to angle upwards instead of the more usual flat or downwards angle to provide the balance without adding more weight with a top rod? OK - so I know I CAN do this, the question is more do other people do this, and does anyone see any side-effects with doing this?

Cheers :thumbsup:
 
M

Moose

Guest
Why not try it do long as they do not touch part of your body at full draw as this could be deemed as providing additional unallowed support

courtesy of moose on the loose
 

Murray

Well-known member
Ironman
American Shoot
AIUK Saviour
Do other people do this? Nope :)
Well, maybe someone somewhere... but watch archerytv channel on youtube for an idea of the setups of the most successful archers.
 

feaviolp

New member
Yeah cheers guys. I did try it and it seems to balance OK, but I did also look around and as Murray says I couldn't find a single picture, video, or reference to anyone else doing it so although there is a lot to be said for doing what feel right rather than what's "supposed to be right", I was concerned that if it was a good idea surely someone else would be doing it. Think I'll just go and get a Flex Dampster top rod and put the short rods back down again.
 
M

Moose

Guest
Thinking about it most recurves want to tip back so if you are needing to put weight at the top you either have to much weight up front or the weight is to far from the bow

You should be looking for a setup just slightly front heavy to avoid any tipping back on bad shots if you want a neutral set up

courtesy of moose on the loose
 

Murray

Well-known member
Ironman
American Shoot
AIUK Saviour
Just as a caveat... no-one else doing it doesn't mean it's wrong :) Start winning majors like that and you'll find it's suddenly a new trend ;)
 

buzz lite beer

Well-known member
Rick McKinney used to shoot for a time with both his twins ever so lightly elevated above the level of the long rod.
I don't know why people get wrapped up in "dynamic" stabiliser balance, and to fall back on the referral of the "Elite archers", very few of the worlds elite archers bother with asymmetric stabiliser set-ups or counter balanced weighing for sight compensating, most post shot top limb bow roll to the right (R/H archer) is due entirely to excessive pressure on the left hand side of the bow grip just below the arrow shelf with the index finger area, from trying to achieve the 45? knuckle angle using poor technique.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
I can only think that with all balance you want it lower than the hand not higher to get a nice stable position when aiming.

A top rod unless long (in front of the bow hand) makes the bow tip backwards not forwards requiring more weight on the longrod or a longer rod.
 

feaviolp

New member
Thinking about it most recurves want to tip back so if you are needing to put weight at the top you either have to much weight up front or the weight is to far from the bow

You should be looking for a setup just slightly front heavy to avoid any tipping back on bad shots if you want a neutral set up

courtesy of moose on the loose
It's not that the bow is tipping back, more that I've read that without proper dynamic balance i.e. the top of the bow is heaver than the bottom or vice versa, it forces one limb to work harder than the other which creates inconsistencies and hence worse grouping. Not saying I've seen this, I'm just going by what I've read in various books :reading:

Just as a caveat... no-one else doing it doesn't mean it's wrong :) Start winning majors like that and you'll find it's suddenly a new trend ;)
Ha ha. Good point, but I think the main problem with that is the "start winning majors" :poulies:

What is dynamic balance and what are you using to decide it is wrong?
Well as I understand it if you turn the bow so the stabiliser is pointing directly down at the floor you should be able to balance the bow on your finger on the riser directly opposite the throat of the grip. I can see the logic here since that's where the pressure is on the bow at full draw (and in fact throughout the draw), so if the bow is balanced at this point then the limbs will work evenly together. If there is more weight above or below this balance point then one limb will be working slightly harder than the other since it's pulling a bit of extra weight to keep the balance. That's the theory, to be honest I don't think I'm necessarily good enough to appreciate the difference, but equally I don't want anything working against me so if that's what's supposed to give the best results then that's what I want to aim for :cheerful:

Rick McKinney used to shoot for a time with both his twins ever so lightly elevated above the level of the long rod.
I don't know why people get wrapped up in "dynamic" stabiliser balance, and to fall back on the referral of the "Elite archers", very few of the worlds elite archers bother with asymmetric stabiliser set-ups or counter balanced weighing for sight compensating, most post shot top limb bow roll to the right (R/H archer) is due entirely to excessive pressure on the left hand side of the bow grip just below the arrow shelf with the index finger area, from trying to achieve the 45? knuckle angle using poor technique.
Finally - someone who did it :D. Yeah I know you can go overboard with trying to copy elite archers, or books etc. Like I said above, I just think if I'm confident I have my set-up as close to "perceived perfect" as possible then at best I will have a better performing bow, and at worst it should be no worse. In other words I shouldn't have any "gotchas" in there where I've done something completely stupid (hopefully). I have also found that archery is very much a confidence sport. If I feel good about my set-up I do better, probably as much to do with me feeling good about it as it is with the set-up actually being more efficient etc. Adding new shiny kit always sees an improvement in my scores, which I think is literally just because I have new shiny kit and I like it :thumbsup:
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
I watched somebody shoot a whole competition with the longrod fixed to the lower part of the riser.

All day he was commenting on how well he was shooting, at the end of the shoot we got talking and I asked when did he first try putting the longrod where it was. With a puzzled look he said "did I oops..."
 

Schme1440

New member
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
a little late to the game but based on your first post. You want to add forward balance without adding weight? you have a agf adjustable, as do i. You can lower the angle of the short rods. this will push the balance forward and will also add stability inn the form of a pendulum effect. I have been experimenting with this so I know this works. Also you could just open up the angle of the short rods to also push the weight forward. this will give it more off a fall down and roll movement as you are not lowering the weight just pushing it forward.

One thing to remember in this is gravity. The lower the center of gravity the more stable a mass.
 

feaviolp

New member
Thanks for your comments Schme1440. It's not quite what I'm trying to achieve though. I've nailed the forward balance by doing exactly what you say, lowering and/or widening the angle of the short rods. The issue is that the bottom of the bow is now heavier than the top so I was looking to balance it by raising the short rods rather than lowering them. After the comments above I've gone and ordered a Doinker Top Limb Supressor though (not the cheapest solution, but my stabs are Doinker Avancee and I wanted to keep things looking matched - vanity is an expensive thing ;)). So once i fit that a bit more adjustment of the v-bar to re-balance everything and I should be good to go, albeit with a bit more weight to give me a workout, lol.
 

Darryl

New member
Rick McKinney used to shoot for a time with both his twins ever so lightly elevated above the level of the long rod.
I don't know why people get wrapped up in "dynamic" stabiliser balance, and to fall back on the referral of the "Elite archers", very few of the worlds elite archers bother with asymmetric stabiliser set-ups or counter balanced weighing for sight compensating, most post shot top limb bow roll to the right (R/H archer) is due entirely to excessive pressure on the left hand side of the bow grip just below the arrow shelf with the index finger area, from trying to achieve the 45? knuckle angle using poor technique.

So you don't have an asymmetrical setup then with more weights to one side?

I found it funny how people copied Brady's setup with the V-Bar betwee the riser and the string :)
 

grimsby archer

New member
Just for the record, I recall in the early 80s, some of the top (olympics?) archers shooting with their v bars pointing upwards at about 45 degrees and back towards the archer, and also, up and forwards, away from the archer.
I remember it, because of course, we all had to try it out
 

Kent O

New member
My advice to to the first post is to get rid of the extender wich will move the COG back without adding more weight on the side rods. I have explained several times on this forum why the COG should be in the grip, or on a vertical line through the pressure point of the grip. Google for "parallell tuning of recurve bow" for an instruction on an alternative stabiliser tuning method. You don't need four short rods and ring weights for this tuning. Use your present short rods and weights to move the COG close to the grip. You can manage parallell tuning with two short rods and a v-bar in the lower stabiliser mounting or in the long rod mounting depending on how much weight you add on the long rod.
This was a test with short rods in the lower stabiliser mounting: V-bars - Page 2
If you have the v-bar in the long rod mounting you angle the short rods down so that the weights are in about the same position as in my test with the v-bar in the lower mounting.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Originally Posted by geoffretired
What is dynamic balance and what are you using to decide it is wrong?
Well as I understand it if you turn the bow so the stabiliser is pointing directly down at the floor you should be able to balance the bow on your finger on the riser directly opposite the throat of the grip. I can see the logic here since that's where the pressure is on the bow at full draw (and in fact throughout the draw), so if the bow is balanced at this point then the limbs will work evenly together. If there is more weight above or below this balance point then one limb will be working slightly harder than the other since it's pulling a bit of extra weight to keep the balance. That's the theory, to be honest I don't think I'm necessarily good enough to appreciate the difference, but equally I don't want anything working against me so if that's what's supposed to give the best results then that's what I want to aim for
I think there is a misunderstanding in there.
Suspending the bow as you say, is one stage in finding the centre of gravity of the bow. The second stage might be to hold the bow near the end of one limb and see which part of the bow is vertically below the point where the bow is suspended.You can try a third suspension point to double check. Once that is done you have found the CoG or balance point of the bow.Most archers these days seem to favour the CoG just in front of and just below the grip.
That has some effect on limbs closing together, but some clarification may help.
Imagine you have a bow that is one piece and set up by the makers to give limbs closing together pretty well for most archers.That is usually done by making the bottom limb a bit stiffer than the top one, as the bow is usually held closer to the bottom limb.
Now imaging the bow is at full draw. Each limb is now bent in such a way that they will close together. Fix a weight at the end of a long rod, and then draw the same bow the same amount. There will be a small force pulling the weight of the long rod downwards, and that will create a change in the bend in the limbs.The top one will bend a little more and the bottom one , a little less. That has changed the way the limbs close, the bottom one could get back first.
Next, put on V-bar and back rods. They will create a force that is working in the opposite direction from the long rod out front.If the two balance each other, the bow will be back to the way it was at first, but slightly heavier.
So, weights can affect the way the limbs bend relative to one another, but to do that the weight needs to create a turning force on the bow, wanting the bow to roll forwards or backwards. Weights added below the grip in the riser, or above the grip in the riser will not create such a turning force. A set of stabilisers that moves the CoG in front of or behind the grip will create a turning force, if they result in a CoG below the grip, they won't, but the bow won't want to tip over to one side so much.
Getting limbs to close at the same time is complicated. How you hold the grip is important,pressing into the grip at the throat, is not the same as pressing well down on the slope of the grip( called heeling )
 

feaviolp

New member
Thanks for that detailed explanation geoffretired !!!

It all makes perfect sense, except for one thing that is still a bit puzzling.

I agree that the turning force on the bow can only be influenced by weights in front of or behind the grip i.e. weight above or below is irrelevent as you have said (and I believe the reason for having it slightly in front is to ensure it's actually pretty much central (in line with the grip) once at full draw because the slightly different distribution of the weight of the limbs has moved the CoG back a little, as well as to provide a nice slow roll after release.

But... surely the weight above/below the pressure point (for the purposes of this I'll assume throat of the grip, but I agree that your own grip will have a bearing) will create a turning force upon release? With more weight below the grip than above it, everything is nicely balanced at full draw, but once it has been released it will be easier to move the top (lighter) part of the bow than the bottom (heavier) part of the bow, hence to top will roll forward which I imagine has two negative implications. 1/ The roll will becomes more pronounced because the slightly foward CoG already created by the long rod / short rods balance will be exagerated; and 2/ (worse) the pivot point for this particular turning force is below the pressure point and so may "jump" from the hand slightly rather than gracefully rolling.

To be honest I'm only guessing, I'm just trying to look logically at the likely forces at play. In my own case the CoG is only slightly below the pressure point i.e. still within the grip area in the vertical axis, so not a big problem.
 
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