[RECURVE] Why does everyone want me to get a long rod?

I've only been shooting about 10 weeks. On completing the beginners' course, my other half (who took up archery at the same time as me) treated me to a Hoyt Excel riser and Core bamboo limbs, a Shibuya sight, and recently (after a couple of coaches said I need one, and with a certain reluctance on my part) added a Shibuya plunger button and rest (instead of the cheapy plastic rest).

While I'm improving (I'm now getting a much higher ratio of hits to misses, and higher scores than only a couple of weeks ago on equivalent rounds), I haven't yet developed a consistent form. I'm making progress (I don't think my left hand grip on the bow is the problem it was a fortnight ago, a home made wrist sling allowing me to relax a lot more) but I don't have a consistent anchor point, I'm not drawing back far enough, my release is not always smooth etc etc. I know I'd benefit from a lot more coaching and, when I can, am attending coaching sessions offered by one of the 2 clubs I've joined, as well ordinary open practice and scored rounds.

But quite a few people now (at both my clubs) have asked "have you thought about getting a long rod?" I've been told that a long rod will mean that on the arrow leaving the string, the top of the bow will fall forward away from me, rather than back towards my head. Why is that such a big deal? Surely it will mean the topmost fletchings are more likely to snag on the sight as the arrow goes past (I've already had 3 top fletchings rip off my arrows in the last 10 days)? I don't really want to add to the weight of my bow (as my left arm is getting tired holding it towards the end of the sessions).

I can't help but think that investment of time in technique is going to make a lot more difference to my shooting than investment in kit. To be honest, the more people try to encourage me to add "sticky outy bits" to my bow, the more my cussed side feels inclined to go the other way and look at barebow or even switching to longbow in the future.

So why/when should I get a longrod? Am I being unreasonable in my resistance to sticky-outy bits, having bought a recurve bow rather than traditional bow in the first place?
 
I started this year and the long rod really helped cut down that annoying way things want to wave about as you sight up.
It brought it down to 'correctable' rather than 'jitter'.
The physicist in me says "moments of inertia rule!"

Somebody will probably come along and explain it properly now.
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Unless you intend to shoot barebow, you will need to get a stabilisation setup.

Don't rush it though - wait till you feel that you can handle the weight.
 

ipob

New member
I've been doing archery about the same time as the OP. I still have the plastic rest and have basic limbs but on an exchange programme so I can up my draw weight as/when indicated, have done that twice now. No button yet and I played with an odd clicker to answer a few of my own nagging doubts - It's back in the kitbag for a while. It is all about the moments of inertia or whatever (moments are forces in a non-straight line or curves as they are better known). Having a bow tilt backwards is bad, apparently. I put a club-owned long rod on and it balanced it much better although only to neutral rather than forward. I'm sure I'll find out why forwards is good. welcome to the world of niche sports!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
When archers first put a long rod on their bows, they often feel the bow is too heavy. That can be a downer when you are fitting something that is supposed to help. However, the heaviness seems to disappear quite quickly once a few shots have been made and made well.
A long rod steadies the bow at the aiming stage, which makes the shot feel better. A wobbling sight when aiming is never a confidence boost.
Another difference is that after release, the bow remains in place longer and starts to roll forwards after the arrow is well clear. There are a couple of benefits from that. One is that the bow arm can stay in place longer after release, helping to resist the common tendency to drop the bow arm or worse still, to pull it across the body in a collapse.
The second benefit is that the gentle rolling allows the archers to sense when they have gripped the bow just at the critical time( the release ) A relaxed bow hand allows the bow to jump forwards then roll a little later. That two stage reaction can help learn how the shot feels from the bow arm's point of view. Without the longrod, the bow's reaction can be to flick around and tilt back. Both of those things can increase the chances of grabbing and moving the bow off aim, without being aware, as it all happens at once, or so it seems.
 

fbirder

Member
I've already had 3 top fletchings rip off my arrows in the last 10 days)
I can't really add anything about a long rod to the excellent advice given already. But I thought this little aside needs addressing.

On a well setup combination of bow and arrows there should be no contact at all between them. Especially not anything violent enough to rip off fletchings. Now it may be that it's down to an occasional poor release, but it may also be indicative of a problem with the bow setup.

This guide http://archery.lv/wp-content/uploads/dokumenti/materiali/tuning01.pdf includes a section on clearance and how to check it.
 

AndyC_772

New member
On a well setup combination of bow and arrows there should be no contact at all between them. Especially not anything violent enough to rip off fletchings. Now it may be that it's down to an occasional poor release, but it may also be indicative of a problem with the bow setup.
This was the odd thing. After the first couple of fletchings came off, we took a look at the bow and decided the most obvious potential point of contact was with the bottom of the sight. So, we moved the sight up by 10mm to create some more clearance. The next session, another fletching came off :duck:

Re: stabilisers, I'm just really pleased that someone already thinks we're shooting well enough that the equipment itself is becoming a limitation. That wasn't meant to happen yet!

When I see people shooting with stabilisers, I see that in some cases the whole bow is wobbling up and down as they draw and aim. This seems very wrong to me, as though the combination of weight and length they're using is one which resonates at just the wrong frequency, and can't possibly make it easier to aim consistently at the centre of the target.

Is that the case? Have those archers just bought the wrong kit? Or does the long rod wobble so the bow doesn't have to?

I'll have the opportunity to try out some different long rods at my club before buying, which is great of course, but it would be handy to know what qualities I should be looking out for in the 'right' one. My gut tells me that it should be the one which wobbles the least, without being so heavy I can't hold the bow up for an entire session. Does that make sense?
 

fbirder

Member
When I see people shooting with stabilisers, I see that in some cases the whole bow is wobbling up and down as they draw and aim.
What you're probably seeing in the long rod exaggerating the normal movements. Get an arrow and hold it by the knock and use it to point at something with your arm extended. You'll see the point wobbling quite a bit - a lot more than just your hand would.
 

dgmultimedia

Supporter
Supporter
I added a long rod and v bar very soon after getting my i.e. bow - not only for the sight stability but with the bow being perfectly balanced and damped every shot feels so much more confident. You don't need huge amounts of weight to get the right balance - left/right as well as forward/back and it makes a big difference to the feel of each release. Re fletch damage - What distant are you shooting? My sight pin is no where near the arrow path until I am attempting 60+yds. !
Re Button - on bows designed to use one a plain rest will not place the centre shot correctly - we put and adjust correctly a button on our beginner bows for the second session onward.
The consistent anchor and release comes with practice and not being overbowed too soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sithspit

New member
I was told by my coach that a long rod can hide errors in your form, I shot for 4 month before i added a stab setup, everyone who started with me bought a kit which included a long rod and so put it on straight away.
I think i learnt a good release and hand grip better without the rod, once the basics where in place it was not to difficult to add the rods.
to be honest the long rods that come with the kits are rubbish as they don't usually have the option of adding more weight. The point of the long rod is not to allow the bow to fall away from you, that is a by-product. The idea is to make it harder to move the bow around during your shot allowing to hold dead centre once the weight has been tuned to your style and setup
 

AndyC_772

New member
Re fletch damage - What distant are you shooting? My sight pin is no where near the arrow path until I am attempting 60+yds. !
Indoors, usually 20 yds. The sight block and pin are much higher, of course; I was referring to the vertical part of the sight that the block mounts to. (Does this even have a name?)

The sight is, of course, mounted off to the right of the arrow's path, but when the arrow bends as it leaves the bow, I figured it might just clip anyway.

There's really nothing else anywhere near the top fletch, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what could be making contact now. I wonder if our club has a high speed camera?
 
Different strokes for different folks.......
but reading all this makes my head ache ;)....buy a trad bow with no sights, no bells and whistles,no funny rods sticking out of it! Get some correctly spined arrows, nocking point an 1/8th above square and simply focus on the smallest point on the target. :)
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Indoors, usually 20 yds. The sight block and pin are much higher, of course; I was referring to the vertical part of the sight that the block mounts to. (Does this even have a name?)

The sight is, of course, mounted off to the right of the arrow's path, but when the arrow bends as it leaves the bow, I figured it might just clip anyway.

There's really nothing else anywhere near the top fletch, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what could be making contact now. I wonder if our club has a high speed camera?
The vertical bit is the sight bar. It would be unusual to be hitting that. It's more likely to be the riser/rest.

Diagnosing clearance issues can be a black art. . .

Useful tools:
lipstick
modelling clay
dry shampoo spray (or spray foot powder)
things which basically make the contact point obvious.

With standard rubber/plastic fletches, you can sometimes see streaks where the material has rubbed off where the fletch makes contact regularly (which it may do, without coming off).

High speed cameras are not always useful for this sort of thing, as you need a really fast camera (a paltry 1200fps or so doesn't do it in my experience :) ) and very good light.
 

Mark31121

Member
Ironman
Turtle wax is another good one - dab it on so it goes cloudy and and contact is usually obvious then polish it off to give your bow a nice sheen (assuming it isn't a matt finish anyway).

Also check that your fletchings aren't loose when you start and the nocking points are in a sensible rotation and that you're not nocking them upside down (easily done even for experienced archers)
 

AndyC_772

New member
Yesterday I had a go at shooting with a long rod fitted for the first time.

My club has Beiter rods available for testing - though not, it seems, for loan or hire, so it was a fairly brief test with a coach's eyes burning through the back of my skull.

The shortest rod (33", I think) didn't really make much difference. The 37" version definitely felt more substantial, and I shot the best group by some margin with a 41" rod despite it feeling a tad unwieldy. We agreed that, if I decided to go that route, I'd actually be better off with a shorter rod plus an extender that could be used when I add a V bar.

It wasn't until I'd packed up for the day that I realised none of these rods would fit in my bag - and in an case, I'm hesitant to buy a fixed, non-adjustable rod on the strength of a single grouping, especially the day after the office party when my score probably had more to do with breakfast and coffee soaking in than any real improvement in my technique or equipment.

I think on that basis I'm better off with a rod that's a more conventional length, but which will accept screw-in weights that I can add or remove over time to see what works for me.

Right now I'm thinking W&W Nano ACS, on the basis that I've never in my life regretted buying good quality tools.
 

EVC

New member
Prices escalated since I bought my last W&W HMC Plus (IIRC I paid something around $60 at the time). I see no problem in you picking the Nano ACS but IMO there are good stuff from others (including W&W's SF brand) at nearly half the price. Nowadays my own choice would be probably Gillo or SF Ultimate (I had one for some time and it is excelent).
 

jonUK76

Member
I have a Wiawis ACS setup (4" extender, 30" long rod and 10" side rods) and like it, it's good quality, and seems to damp down noise and vibration very well too. While far from the cheapest setup available, I got it for a decent price and it's a long way short of the really pricey stuff like Doinker's high end kit. BTW they've slightly changed the model for 2017 so it might be worth looking for deals on the current range when the new one filters through.
 

AndyC_772

New member
Last week I succumbed to the advice several people have given me, which was to go to a pro store and just try out a range of stabilisers until I found one I liked. Seems it's not really all that scientific.

First up was a 26" Cartel. Very light, and made hardly any difference to the feel of my bow. It's undeniably cheap, but I really couldn't see it delivering much benefit either. I tried the 30" next, but whilst it felt more substantial, it also felt wobbly.

Next were a couple of Infitec models in different lengths. Both were considerably more stable and confidence inspiring, but also heavy.

Then, the W&W ACS Nano 28". This one immediately felt right. Not too heavy, not too light, and as stable as any of the others.

Finally, an Easton Contour CS, which felt very different to all the others. The carbon rod itself is exceptionally light and stiff, and on its own it balances right up near the end weights. One day I can see it being a possible upgrade, but on this occasion I was getting tired and didn't really see the benefit of trying it with more and more weight on the end, which it really needed to make up for the lack of mass in the rod itself. I don't doubt that it's much closer to the 'ideal' long rod, with all the weight as far away from the bow as possible, but I preferred the feel of the W&W at half the price.

So, W&W it is, and I'm happy with it. So far the main benefit seems to be that it's altered the distribution of weight between my bow hand and grip, which makes the bow easier to hold correctly as I start to draw. Time will tell if it has any real beneficial effect on my grouping!
 
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