Armour piercing......REALLY?

bearded bowyer

New member
With my first warbow under my belt I thought I would see if the old armour piercing thing was true.
I found the thickest kitchen pot/pan I could (don't tell the wife) It turned out to be a very heavy baking tray. Please note, it isn't a cheap thin try it is a thick steel baking tray.
Also please note that my warbow is only 90lbs at 32" No where near the big boys toys.
And the arrow is just a plain old 11/32 footed target arrow with a brass bullet tip. Not a heavy old war arrow with bodkin.
This is what happened
armour2.jpg armour1.jpg armour.jpg
It punched right through it!
Arrow doesnt look too healthy now but......

Yes

Even a light weight warbow is devastating!
I wonder just what a bigger warbow could do.........
I intend to find out!
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
The energy in the arrow increases a lot as the mass increases, also a square section point cuts through much more efficiently by cutting an X and folding back 4 triangles of metal allowing the square
We were shooting at an old car door up the club... most therapeutic... but treicky to get the arrows out :)
Del
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
There was a wonderful slow mo video of an arrow going through plate armour.
It showed the arrow approaching the metal, then the pointed end landed and made a shallow dent. After that, it was almost unbelievable. The twisting and buckling shaft, acted on the point; twisting it one way then the other. Just like a hand with a bradawl. What seemed like ages later, the metal was scraped away and the arrow pushed its way through.
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Entertaining :)

My understanding sure there are more knowledgable peeps to critique this..

Target/field arrows are generally lightweight so they travel further and the points limit penetration so they can be pulled out easier and they don't destroy the boss. I understand that modern target arrows are not considered to be offensive weapons because of this.

A war arrow on the other hand is heavier which means it won't go as far and maximises penetration with having a longer sharper profile. So it would be interesting to see the effect of a heavier arrow with a war bodkin. Which is why I assume warbows have to be maxed out poundage wise.

Not sure about modern broadheads they appear to be designed go through flesh.. Not as heavy as medieval warheads but very sharp and strong.

Something I would love to play with but don't really I have anywhere safe to shoot broadheads...
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
I believe any arrow is classed the same as a knife in the eyes of the law!
Yes the law is an ass and ignorance of the law is no excuse, unless you are a policeman in which case you can arrest on suspicion and then trawl your books for an offence at your leisure.
Del
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Hi Del... Well I am no expert at the law I was interested in the legalities of wandering around in public with a bow/arrows.

My google research turned up..

Neither a bow, nor its arrows are offensive weapons under law unless an individual adapted them or intended to use them for the specific purpose of to causing harm to other persons.

This is because modern sporting and hunting bows and arrows are not 'made' offensive weapons, as they are designed to shoot targets or game, not persons.

The burden would fall on the police to prove that you intended or had adapted the bow and arrows for the purpose of causing harm to other persons.

However, the arrows themselves (not the bow), when carried in a public place or on school premises, would fall under Pointed and Bladed Articles offences (Section 139, Criminal Justice Act, 1988).

In this case, the burden would fall on the individual carrying the arrows to convince the police that he or she had 'good reason' to have them at the time: for example, if the carrier was on their way to a practice area or to hunt. Ultimately a court would have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the individual did not have a 'good reason', for that individual to be convicted of the offence.
Source(s):
Section 139, Criminal Justice Act, 1988
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Lets face to you could "act offensively" with a banana and a policeman would take it away from you,,

But in terms of owning or shooting a bow they are not deemed as offensive out of the box..

I think it's more about what you as a person are doing that attracts police attention.. Clearly going into a busy supermarket with a spear, javelin, baseball bat, cricket bat or strung bow is out of place and quite rightly would be viewed suspiciously. Oddly enough I suspect if I would get away with carrying a longbow if I wore a fitting costume as people would assume I was into reenactment. However gong around in a hoodie would have 999 calls back to back.

So than it all goes down to why you are carrying a bow, club, screwdriver, chainsaw through a public place..

"Honest officer I the reason I was wandering around Tesco with a running chainsaw is in case of zombie attack".. ;-)
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
...
Neither a bow, nor its arrows are offensive weapons under law unless an individual adapted them or intended to use them for the specific purpose of to causing harm to other persons.
...
However, the arrows themselves (not the bow), when carried in a public place or on school premises, would fall under Pointed and Bladed Articles offences (Section 139, Criminal Justice Act, 1988).
Exactly...
That's typical of the Law contradicting itself, being an Ass and flying in the face of common sense.
Of course a bow IS an offensive weapon, and of course an arrow (target arrow) is NOT a blade.

Anyhow the legality is amost irrelevant. If a policeman wants to confiscate and subsequently lose/damage your expensive or irreplaceable hand crafted equipment there is little you can do. The moral is keep your head down.
Del
(You ain't seen me roight?)
 

WillS

New member
You need to make yourself some real arrows! Even my 75# yew bow can push the EWBS Livery arrows (1/2" with Tudor bodkin) through a steel plate. Make a single Livery shaft and go experimenting. It's addictive!

Out of interest have you been able to let your 90# bow reach full distance yet? Be good to know how far it can throw 'em!
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
... especially near the end of the month when there might be stats to be made up.
AND
also when there is heightened tensions elsewhere ... monklands archery club (MAC) in coatbridge got the attention of a helicopter and 2 ground units because there was an huge orange walk in progress in the town and the airborne copper spotted 'suspicious' activity with a missile weapon in a sports ground! Must have been a high draw. ;)
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Yes intent is a odd concept.

In theory the police can should only seize goods if they have reasonable grounds for believing that:

they have been obtained illegally; or
they are evidence in relation to an offence.

In either of these cases, they must also have reasonable grounds for believing that it is necessary to seize the goods to prevent them being lost, stolen or destroyed.

So it's a no brainier if its an offensive weapon, but we already know that target/field archery is not classified as offensive.

Course they do confiscate things...

"I ain't seen nuffin guv"
 

english_archer

New member
Ironman
I watched an interesting program the other week that touched on arrows and armour they used pressure pads to measure the impact of the arrows from a 180pound warbow and even the arrows that didnt penetrate still hit with enough force to knock a fully grown fully armour man flat on his back
 

Simon Banks

Active member
I heard archers would apparently put a knob of beeswax on the tips of the arrows. This was supposed to make them more square on to the armour on impact..
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
I heard archers would apparently put a knob of beeswax on the tips of the arrows. This was supposed to make them more square on to the armour on impact..
I remember seeing that on 'Out of Town' with Jack Hargreaves many years ago. Shooting at a WWII army helmet.
the theory is the beeswax helps the point tog grip on impact rather than glancing off. It probably lubrictes the cutting action once it does penetrate.
Del
 

WillS

New member
I watched an interesting program the other week that touched on arrows and armour they used pressure pads to measure the impact of the arrows from a 180pound warbow and even the arrows that didnt penetrate still hit with enough force to knock a fully grown fully armour man flat on his back
Was that Mike Loades amazing "Going Medieval"? Such a relief to have seen it on UK tv again! It's about 5 years old but took a LOT of pushing to get it back in the UK again. The guys shooting were Joe Gibbs and Mark Stretton in case you're interested, the two world record holders in warbow shooting.

When you bear in mind that priority for the arrows was to cut down horses, and not go through armour, it goes to show just how powerful they really were. And what a nice added bonus!
 

Simon Banks

Active member
Yes hitting the horses makes sense they are larger easier to hit and may injure or even kill the ridder if they fall or stumble..
Of course there is horse armour ;-)
 
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