Admit defeat and sell Backstrap release?

The Meggy

Active member
A while ago (and how time flies) I bought a Carter Backstrap release - similar to the Evolution, but in wrist-strap release type design, for those of you unfamiliar. I was trying it again a few days ago, first at a blank boss, and then at a target (indoors, 20 yards). I normally shoot a wrist-strap, trigger type release aid.

Now I know the theory of shooting by increasing back tension, and so on, but I have to admit (and always have) that I don't really shoot this way. The best gloss I can put on things is that I maintain back tension, and aim/squeeze until the shot goes off. Or more probably, something in my sub-concious sets the release off, hopefully in response to seeing the scope settled in the right place. I don't claim to be the best in the world, but I have made MB for the last 3 years. I do sometimes get a few surprise releases happening, but I don't think this is as a result of increasing back tension.

Using the backstrap, things don't seem at all easy for me. Increasing tension seems to cause some muscle shaking etc. plus I find it hard to maintain my aim properly. Poor groups (to put it mildly) result. Having watched our superb compound archers at the Commonwealth games, I was struck by how still they hold the bow, with a strong focus on the gold until the release triggers. Not at all how I imagine I look using the backstrap release!

So I'm waffling here, but should I admit that I'm not going to achieve anything useful with this release, and sell it to someone who can use it more productively? Or am I missing a trick somewhere? Opinions very welcome, especially if you have used this type of release yourself.

I've been "off-forum" for a while... Apologies to you all, and good to be back! :cheerful:
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
You have two options;run or fight.
Seriously, I have suffered similar problems and still do to some extent.The evo type simply makes me wonder when I will draw hard enough to get a release. Usually it is too late.
I feel it is all to do with KNOWING that you are working towards a release, as opposed to hoping it will go for some reason.
I tried a hinge release. You know it is going to activate because you can feel the handle moving.
That gave me a lot more confidence. For the first time, I had a release aid that I KNEW would activate if I kept feeling the handle move.
It's like the clicker user who thinks they have a mm to go and never get there.
Compare that to the clicker user who KNOWS beyond any doubt that they are pulling the point through.
Getting relaxed because of the hinge, has allowed me to make the thumb trigger type work better,too.I guess it could do the same for an Evo type.
I would not want to advise you to buy a hinge in order to find out whether or not it will work for you and the backstrap. I would advise you to ask yourself how badly you want the backstrap to work for you and what you are prepared to do to reach that end.
 

Next Tangent

New member
Firstly (in my opinion) you are not looking for a total surprise release where you do not know at all when the release is going to go off, you will have some idea of when the release will go off as you will have put yourself in the position that it will go off.

When shooting you must match the pressures front and back. For most people this translates into applying a slight push with the front hand as though you are pushing the bow into the gold. You do not want to push too hard or your front shoulder may begin to raise which will cause all sorts of problems.

Once you are pushing towards the gold I like to think about pulling my elbow back in a straight line from where it is held at full draw. With a trigger release this will cause the shot to go off within a couple of seconds, but i never know exactly when, so i only begin this movement once i have settled on the gold.

When shooting an evolution i find that sometimes the shot simply will not go off, and this is ALWAYS due to not applying enough pressure on the front, I can easily make the shot go off by beginning to push with the front arm, however this will result in a bad shot as the front arm moves, so i tend to come down and reset the shot pushing with the front arm.

If you do apply front arm pressure and you still can't get the shot to go off the spring tension may be set too high. Get yourself a set of bow scales and measure your bow to get the let off weight. Then measure your release and set it about 1 - 2lb heavier than the let off and try again.
 

buzz lite beer

Well-known member
Get shot of it, the demons are in :devil::eek:gre:, it's just not for you, I have not read one positive comment/aspect in your opening post about your time using the backstrap.
 

Fletchett

New member
Sell it.

Just look how many top target compounders using any kind of backtension release aids at competitions.

Sure, Gellenthien using Scott Longhorn and he is rotating his hand instead of increasing tension in the muscles in his back.

The Evolution and the Bacstrap are good fun to play, but when it comes to serious results, just don't try to rely on them.
 

The Meggy

Active member
Get rid of it, and shoot like Dietmar Trillus.
If I get rid of it, I will shoot like Dietmar Trillus? It's gone dude!! A persuasive argument I think. :mind-blow
You have two options;run or fight.
Seriously, I have suffered similar problems and still do to some extent.The evo type simply makes me wonder when I will draw hard enough to get a release. Usually it is too late.
I feel it is all to do with KNOWING that you are working towards a release, as opposed to hoping it will go for some reason.
I tried a hinge release. You know it is going to activate because you can feel the handle moving.
That gave me a lot more confidence. For the first time, I had a release aid that I KNEW would activate if I kept feeling the handle move.
It's like the clicker user who thinks they have a mm to go and never get there.
Compare that to the clicker user who KNOWS beyond any doubt that they are pulling the point through.
Getting relaxed because of the hinge, has allowed me to make the thumb trigger type work better,too.I guess it could do the same for an Evo type.
I would not want to advise you to buy a hinge in order to find out whether or not it will work for you and the backstrap. I would advise you to ask yourself how badly you want the backstrap to work for you and what you are prepared to do to reach that end.
A very thoughtful, perceptive, and considered response, as usual for your good self Geoff! Your points relating to the subtle, but perhaps important, difference between a pure tension activated release like the backstrap/evolution etc. and the hinge type, is well taken. I have had vague thoughts along the same lines. As you know from previous conversations, I have indeed been afflicted by target panic in the past. Somehow, in recent years it has not been a major issue (I admit to the odd flinch occasionally but I don't let it worry me! :eek:ptimist:). You use the words "confidence", "knowing", and "relaxed" also, which all refer to some extent, to the mind - and I do think target panic, and related conditions are very much a mental issue, albeit with very physical symtoms. My improvement in recent years has I think been down to better mental control, and perhaps this is a better area to look at for me than a purely physical solution like changing the release aid. At the moment, I think my "condition" is under control, though I suspect, like an alcoholic, once you have TP it is always there in some way!

You ask what I am prepared to do to make the most of the backstrap release and how badly I want it to work for me. I think I would need to embark upon a pretty major program of practice to achieve anything good, with a greater time input from myself, BUT the thing is I feel I could perhaps spend such extra time better by just improving my existing technique and practicing more in general. When I got the Backstrap, I was probably hoping for an easy improvement (or relatively easy anyway) and maybe I should have known that life isn't like that - you generally have to work to achieve things. So the answer is no, I don't think I'm prepared to do the work with the backstrap, although I may increase my workrate at archery practice in general. Thanks for asking the question though as it helps me to put my thoughts in order.
Firstly (in my opinion) you are not looking for a total surprise release where you do not know at all when the release is going to go off, you will have some idea of when the release will go off as you will have put yourself in the position that it will go off.

When shooting you must match the pressures front and back. For most people this translates into applying a slight push with the front hand as though you are pushing the bow into the gold. You do not want to push too hard or your front shoulder may begin to raise which will cause all sorts of problems.

Once you are pushing towards the gold I like to think about pulling my elbow back in a straight line from where it is held at full draw. With a trigger release this will cause the shot to go off within a couple of seconds, but i never know exactly when, so i only begin this movement once i have settled on the gold.

When shooting an evolution i find that sometimes the shot simply will not go off, and this is ALWAYS due to not applying enough pressure on the front, I can easily make the shot go off by beginning to push with the front arm, however this will result in a bad shot as the front arm moves, so i tend to come down and reset the shot pushing with the front arm.

If you do apply front arm pressure and you still can't get the shot to go off the spring tension may be set too high. Get yourself a set of bow scales and measure your bow to get the let off weight. Then measure your release and set it about 1 - 2lb heavier than the let off and try again.
Thanks for your thoughts NT, some useful stuff there, and not just in relation to using the release aid either. I will read through your advice a few times and may have at least a session or two with the Backstrap with these in mind, before making a final decision. I suspect it will still be to get rid of it if I'm honest, but I don't like to jump into decisions such as this. I agree with what you say about the surprise not being exactly what you're after - this is quite a subtle area to talk about, but I tend to go along with what Alistair Whittingham has to say on the subject.
Get shot of it, the demons are in :devil::eek:gre:, it's just not for you, I have not read one positive comment/aspect in your opening post about your time using the backstrap.
That's true - you're probably right!
Sell it.

Just look how many top target compounders using any kind of backtension release aids at competitions.

Sure, Gellenthien using Scott Longhorn and he is rotating his hand instead of increasing tension in the muscles in his back.

The Evolution and the Bacstrap are good fun to play, but when it comes to serious results, just don't try to rely on them.
Thanks for that Fletchett, it gives me confidence that if I do decide it has to go, that I can still improve and achieve things with my archery. I have heard about the hand-rotating trick, and why not if it works I suppose. I was originally considering that the backstrap would be primarily a training aid for me, and I would still use a trigger release in competition. What I did not appreciate, or expect, was that I would find it so un-usable in practice too! Ho-hum... Strangely, I find it easier to shoot the back-tension increase way with my trigger release i.e. let finger rest on trigger and extend - the release goes off no problem. Although as I say, I don't generally shoot this way really.

Cheers to all of you in fact for taking the time to reply to my question! :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:
 

Fugue

Member
Now I know the theory of shooting by increasing back tension, and so on, but I have to admit (and always have) that I don't really shoot this way. The best gloss I can put on things is that I maintain back tension, and aim/squeeze until the shot goes off.
And that could be the issue, not saying that you should keep the release, I am the first to say that Back Tension doesn't work for everyone. But you are certainly not going to get it working for you unless you change your technique.

Obviously it's hard to know exactly whats happening from a distance, but if you are approaching using a BT release as shooting the way you normally do then just put a bit more pressure on then you are gonna hit the problems you describe.

One possibility is that if your technique is similar to the way I shoot when I am using a standard release which is to keep as much pressure front and back as is comfortable then if I try then to use BT from that point and add pressure then there is very little extra I can add without losing the stability in my shooting. The answer for BT releases is to change the technique so you lower the initial front and back tension when you are at full draw and gradually put them back in as you aim, the BT release should be tuned to go off when you get back to a little above what you would previously held at, but you can adjust that as you get used to it.

Unfortunately that is only one potential issue/element of getting your technique adapted to work with BT, which is why it takes a lot of time. I know some of the top archers who have made the switch have invested a full indoor season (3-4 sessions a week minimum) to perfecting their technique, and some of them have the benefit of coaches to keep an eye on them.

What you may find useful if you've not already read it is the following article:

http://www.cambridgeshirearchery.org/Back tension pt2.pdf

(A Glade article by John Dudley)

part 1 is there as well but thats more for Hinge releases.

But that does cover quite well all the initial technique issues which you need to address before you will get any consistancy out of the release.

Next point I'd make is one of the reasons that some of the top archers are so good is that they are well within their strength capabilities even if they are pulling hard and making very dynamic shots. None of them are pushing themselves beyond what their body is capable off, so to get the best results you need to try and learn from that as well.


All that said, I don't use a BT yet, point and shoot ;)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Now that's what I call a reply!!
Brilliant!
You ask what I am prepared to do to make the most of the backstrap release and how badly I want it to work for me. I think I would need to embark upon a pretty major program of practice to achieve anything good, with a greater time input from myself, BUT the thing is I feel I could perhaps spend such extra time better by just improving my existing technique and practicing more in general.
I see the backstrap as a useful episode in your progress.
The hinge release has been a useful one for me. The Loesch( Evo type workings) was another useful episode for me. One helped; the other made things worse. BUUUT,both, in there own ways, brought me one step nearer to my goal. I wanted to use a release aid well. I wasn't good with any but finding out that the type was not the problem is something I had to learn for myself.I am now left with getting on with the type that will require the least amount of time for the most amount of points. I think we are both in that position.Knowing that the way forward is the path you are following is worth an awful lot of time.Doubt is a bit of a killer don't you think?
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Just aim and squeeze the trigger. Have the confidence that while you are aiming and keeping the back tension on you will trigger the release with about the same amount of conscious action as deliberately blinking.
 

The Meggy

Active member
But you are certainly not going to get it working for you unless you change your technique...
Many thanks for such a great reply Fugue, a whole lot of good stuff in there - and a lot of understanding can be gained from what you say for any archer I think (not just in relation to release aid stuff too). A lot of what you say reinforces what I think about the sheer bloody amount of work it would take for me to see results from the Backstrap. Of course, a top shooter is very driven, and will put the time in if they feel it will benefit them. But for myself, I am a keen club/county level archer, who has a certain amount of time available only, so it is more a case of using that time as wisely as possible. A judgement call in the end, but I tend to think the backstrap is not for me - it requires more than I am able to give. I know your standard of shooting too, so if you don't shoot that way, that gives me hope!
 

The Meggy

Active member
Now that's what I call a reply!!
Brilliant!

I see the backstrap as a useful episode in your progress.
The hinge release has been a useful one for me. The Loesch( Evo type workings) was another useful episode for me. One helped; the other made things worse. BUUUT,both, in there own ways, brought me one step nearer to my goal. I wanted to use a release aid well. I wasn't good with any but finding out that the type was not the problem is something I had to learn for myself.I am now left with getting on with the type that will require the least amount of time for the most amount of points. I think we are both in that position.Knowing that the way forward is the path you are following is worth an awful lot of time.Doubt is a bit of a killer don't you think?
You're right Geoff, it has taught me things, so at least I am a little wiser archery-wise, than before perhaps, which can only be a good thing. Doubt is indeed the thing to avoid - maybe it doesn't matter so much what one's approach is a long as one commits with confidence and a positive attitude?
Just aim and squeeze the trigger. Have the confidence that while you are aiming and keeping the back tension on you will trigger the release with about the same amount of conscious action as deliberately blinking.
There's that confidence word again! Well put I think - it does sometimes (maybe even often) happen like this for me. I need to believe in my shooting technique a bit more, somehow I have always had a niggling thought that I don't do things "properly" ha ha, but I should lose this I reckon!
 

english_archer

New member
Ironman
There's that confidence word again! Well put I think - it does sometimes (maybe even often) happen like this for me. I need to believe in my shooting technique a bit more, somehow I have always had a niggling thought that I don't do things "properly" ha ha, but I should lose this I reckon!
Ive watched you shoot many many times and Ive always been struck by how solid and consistant your form is and you know yourself the kind of scores you are capable of shooting :) just believe in your self (blimey I must be mad, I will never beat you if I keep incouraging you lol)
 

The Meggy

Active member
Ive watched you shoot many many times and Ive always been struck by how solid and consistant your form is and you know yourself the kind of scores you are capable of shooting :) just believe in your self (blimey I must be mad, I will never beat you if I keep incouraging you lol)
I had just logged out but saw your reply in my email inbox, and felt I had to answer! Very nice of you to say so - thank you for being so kind sir. Of course, we don't tend to know what our form looks like to others, so that is very good to hear (although if you only knew the jumble going on in my head sometimes you might laugh!).

If can send you some confidence back, I would not be surprised if you did beat me, why not? these things are not set in stone (although I will always try my best too... :crackup:) I think your own form looks absolutely bloody excellent (yes, I have watched it!) and I know you have put in the effort to learn the back tension shooting way of things from the start. A wise move IMO, and I feel sure that the results will come - in fact there have already been signs of this I think?
 

Howi

Member
You're right Geoff, it has taught me things, so at least I am a little wiser archery-wise, than before perhaps, which can only be a good thing. Doubt is indeed the thing to avoid - maybe it doesn't matter so much what one's approach is a long as one commits with confidence and a positive attitude?


There's that confidence word again! Well put I think - it does sometimes (maybe even often) happen like this for me. I need to believe in my shooting technique a bit more, somehow I have always had a niggling thought that I don't do things "properly" ha ha, but I should lose this I reckon!
If you can't get your head round a particular release, better to let go and try something else, as you will never master it mentally.
Personally I have found hinge releases (carter 2.5) and tension (EVO) to suit me better than a trigger release, but everyone is different.
It is not always what the top shooters use that is right for another individual, for me, I will never shoot like them no matter what release I use, so I use the release I am most comfortable/consistent with.
As Geoffretired has already discovered, mental attitude can cause serious problems, much akin to target panic.
Bottom line is, you MUST have faith in your release, whatever type you use, otherwise you will only be shooting yourself in the foot (quite literally with some releases:duh:)
 

The Meggy

Active member
If you can't get your head round a particular release, better to let go and try something else, as you will never master it mentally.
Personally I have found hinge releases (carter 2.5) and tension (EVO) to suit me better than a trigger release, but everyone is different.
It is not always what the top shooters use that is right for another individual, for me, I will never shoot like them no matter what release I use, so I use the release I am most comfortable/consistent with.
As Geoffretired has already discovered, mental attitude can cause serious problems, much akin to target panic.
Bottom line is, you MUST have faith in your release, whatever type you use, otherwise you will only be shooting yourself in the foot (quite literally with some releases:duh:)
I agree with you that a hinge type might suit me better - one day I might try one, but for now will probably stick with the "old faithfull" wrist trigger-type release. Also I agree about mental attitude - in fact I think it actually can cause target panic, and changing attitude can have a similarly beneficial effect, speaking from my own experience. One final agreement! yes I think we must have faith (or confidence to use another word, since I am not religious) in our shooting equipment, otherwise things generally go pear-shaped at some point (usually in the middle of a tournament I find!). Cheers for the reply! :beer:
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The Meggy,
I have just looked back at the journal I started on this forum, when I first started on the road to cure my TP.It is over 4 years old!! How time flies.
From a hair trigger and TP, to shooting with a decent aim and a stiff trigger, took two to three weeks.
I think the two "ways of shooting" are as different from each other as I am ever likely to experience.
After the first few weeks, where I made rapid progress, the improvements slowed down.Looking back, I have to blame myself for not realising something wasn't right.I have misused much of the last three years going round in circles.Had I been more aware, I could have reached my present state much sooner.
The difference between the first few weeks' work and the rest of the time was that, at first, I knew beyond doubt that things were working; later I was far less sure. In fact, I kept looking for reasons for the lack of progress, when I should have asked for help and got on with the rest of the work.
Knowing that the right path is being trodden is worth months of trudging up and down dead ends.I keep looking over the hedges to see if there's an easier route.These distractions have just cost me time.
 
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