Non release aid training device?

The Meggy

Active member
"Non-release-aid" training device?

I have a spare compound with an Airbow (one of those captive arrow things where the "arrow" attaches to the string and goes inside a tube, bit like a bicycle pump) which allows me to "shoot" indoors (I aim at a scaled down target about 4 metres away). It works fine but I do find it slightly alarming to shoot - the forward yank you get on the bow is quite something, due to the "arrow" staying on the bow I think. You need to have a very good bow-sling arrangement otherwise the bow is wrenched out of your hand and lands on the floor! Another issue is that you need to remove the arrow-rest to fit the tube, so it's not really practical for your regular bow, plus it is a bit of a fiddle attaching the "arrow" to the bowstring.

But I'm thinking of a different idea: kind of a release aid, except it doesn't release :rotfl:(stay with me please... :pray:). What would happen is you attach it to the string/D-loop with some sort of locking mechanism such that it couldn't possibly come off unintentionally, and the trigger would produce a reasonably loud click only. The trigger could be set to give the click at varying pressure to simulate your favorite release aid. So.. you could practice aiming and releasing - if it clicks when you're nicely on aim then (good form permitting) that would have been a good shot right? You would not get any sort of follow through (in fact the bow should not move at all) but then I subscribe to the principle that the follow through should just be allowed to happen as a result of what you have done before anyway. I think this could be a very good therapy for those of us suffering from target panic or even just a mild or occasional case of the "yips" :guilty: also.

Has anyone ever made such a device? (unfortunately I was distinctly average at metalwork at school...). I would probably want a wrist release type version since that's what I shoot normally. I know that Zenith, and maybe some of the other hinge release manufacturers make cams to fit their releases that just give a click, but I'm not aware of anything similar for trigger releases. I guess it is very possible I'm not the first to think along these lines, but what do you reckon to this idea folks? :duck:
 

grimsby archer

New member
How about something on the lines of the Formmaster for recurve.
A fixed line (rope - no stretchy) connected to the bowstring (dloop) at one end and either your elbow or even your release aid at the other.
The plan being that the fixed line allows the bowstring to be released but only for an inch. This would give you a true release without pounding your arrow into the wall.

Alternatively how about a bow with reverse cams so that the "peak weight" of the bow would be just a few pounds (easy to stop indoors) but the holding weight was your normal holding weight

Loads more great ideas brewing, though I should be working :)
 

The Meggy

Active member
Hi Chris! Been there and got the T-shirt as regards the Formaster idea. It works OK also but for me there is something just not quite right about the arrangement. I think it is partly down to the contrast between the low holding weight and much higher peak weight on a compound. Even if the string has only moved forward an inch you are into the peak weight. The feedback you get just doesn't seem to relate that well to real shooting. Also I find the Formaster rope gets in the way of my release hand unless you have it too slack which is a no go. I came to the conclusion that the Formaster was better for recurve use. But keep them ideas coming!

When I shot recurve (back in the mists of time...) I used the Formaster for a while, and it had the unfortunate effect of training my subconcious that the shot sequence did not include putting an arrow on the string. You can guess the result. After several dry fires at my club (before I was at Grimsby) - fortunately no major injury or broken bow but embarassing non the less, I backed off training with it. :covereyes
 

The Meggy

Active member
Actually, the "reverse cams" thing could work - and Mathews do the Genesis which stays at the same weight I think. Having said that, I still like my idea the best as you would have the advantage of using your normal bow set up, plus I think that fact that nothing would move/change except for the release going click would be advantageous.
 

Watch_Man

Active member
When Rachael Sullivan was shooting at your club she had made an adapter for her release aid that allowed her to dry fire it. I seem to recall that it was made out of dental resin and cast to fit her Carter Ember. I can't remember exactly how it worked but I do remember her showing it to me.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I posted on this very thing some time ago. I had a CopperJohn double Eagle release aid and found out by accident that it could be adapted to do just what you are suggesting. It worked as far a clicking etc, but never released the string. It was a bit like shooting blank ammo from a rifle or pistol.
 

sambow

New member
Depending upon what type of release you use, zenith do a practice cam for the hinge releases that does as you say, you can practice the release, but it won't fire. To quote Zenith "..The full moon allows the archer to to use his bow to completely simulate a shot. Rather than the arrow being fired, the shot ends with a "click" from the release and the bow can then be let down safely. .."

You can find out more here:

Zenith Archery Products...the LEADER in Back Tension Release Technology for the serious archer!
 

Hidden Hippo

New member
I don't really understand why you would want to do this.

Part of a good shot is the follow through, so surely by practicing without a follow through then you'll be only really practicing half the shot and forgetting a fairly important part. I'd expect this could lead to you trying to stop the follow through when shooting properly and add undue tension.

This is just my take on it obviously, and I could be woefully wrong.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Hidden Hippo, you could be right and the wrong lesson might be learnt from the release.
There could be another side to this though. At the point of release, when the shot really does go, some archers could be adding things to the release/follow through without being aware of it. I'm thinking of something, along the lines of anticipating the release. If there is anticipation under normal shooting, there may still be anticipation with this release. It could show up as a flinch or similar as there should be next to no movement.I'm only guessing that this, once uncovered, could lead to some correction and possible improvements.
 

sambow

New member
If there is anticipation under normal shooting, there may still be anticipation with this release. It could show up as a flinch or similar as there should be next to no movement.
Geoff exactly my thoughts. I was in a competition at the weekend and watched a good archer have trouble on one shot, he anticipated the shot twice when he hadn't actually released. His bow arm dropped a good two inches. True follow through is important, but using a "false" release without moving the arm would also be good practice. Also there are sometimes benefits in eliminating some areas of the shot to enable focus on one particular area.
 

The Meggy

Active member
When Rachael Sullivan was shooting at your club she had made an adapter for her release aid that allowed her to dry fire it. I seem to recall that it was made out of dental resin and cast to fit her Carter Ember. I can't remember exactly how it worked but I do remember her showing it to me.
Cheers Trevor, I had completely forgotten about that but she did indeed show it to me also - it was indeed a Carter Ember, I can't remember how it worked though. She used to make a lot of things out of dental resin (perhaps not the most obvious material!) since she was (still is I presume) a dentist. Maybe I will have to consider modifying one of my wrist releases in some sort of analogous way, though as I am distinctly not good at engineering/metalwork it will have to be a simple solution!
 

The Meggy

Active member
Hi Hidden Hippo, you could be right and the wrong lesson might be learnt from the release.
There could be another side to this though. At the point of release, when the shot really does go, some archers could be adding things to the release/follow through without being aware of it. I'm thinking of something, along the lines of anticipating the release. If there is anticipation under normal shooting, there may still be anticipation with this release. It could show up as a flinch or similar as there should be next to no movement.I'm only guessing that this, once uncovered, could lead to some correction and possible improvements.
Thanks to everybody for their input. I would say I'm not sure about this idea myself but my thoughts do run along similar lines to Geoff's here. If you have a habit of flinching in normal shooting, then it might show up in some movement on triggering the training device. But I think with work you could learn not to do this and just have things remain steady when it clicked, since the anxiety about where the arrow will go would be removed (since you're not actually shooting). The brain could learn the feeling of shooting this way and then this practiced new habit would transfer (hopefully) to your actual shooting.

HH, I do agree that you should practice the whole shot, including the follow through (i.e. just letting it happen) so I would not advocate only working with my non-release device but just using it as one part of the archer's range of practice methods.

Geoff, I will have a look at the Double Eagle release on line, although if not a wrist release may not be quite what I'm after. Cheers again everyone, it's great to get the thoughts of fellow compound archers on things like this!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
The Meggy, The copper John is hand held. The modification is very simple IF the internal mechanism is in two stages. I could modify my Chocolate Lite and I suspect most of the Carter hand held range in the same way.
With wrist releases, the mechanism is often very simple and the mod would be impossible.
However, I remember Marcus explaining how he used a method to get the same results you are looking for. I think his method would work on most releases as it doesn't depend on the internals.
You put the jaw/hook round the string/d-loop as normal. You also put a release rope round the string/d-loop so that when the jaw releases the string, it moves a mm or so then is caught by the safety rope. I guess, that as most compounds are low holding weight, the string will be travelling relatively slowly after such a short travel so the tug on the release will be fairly light. That should allow an archer to still notice any anticipation. There will be a very short "follow through" from the archer.
What wrist release do you use?
 

The Meggy

Active member
Thanks Geoff, that sounds like a pretty good suggestion. I use a TruBall Loopmaster release (not everyone's cup of tea maybe, but the dimensions are right for me and I find it pretty good). I suppose I would need to find somewhere to attach the additional cord that goes through the D-loop - perhaps the wrist strap itself with a reasonably long cord would work do you think? It's a bit like Grimsby Archer's idea of using a rigid formaster, but one problem with this was that to prevent to much string movement on release, the formaster rope had to be already under a slight tension, which in turn took some tension off the release aid head, and so changed the way the trigger felt (I'm rambling but you get the idea I hope).

As to altering hand held releases as you describe - I'm impressed, but I suspect you may well be a bit cleverer than me at this sort of thing. Personally I would never even dare to open a Carter (or similar) release, let alone MODIFY it!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I had a loopmaster, snap!
The rope should be fixed to the release aid at one end and able to hook up to the release aid using the other end, after going round the string. A bit like a wrist sling attaches to the wrist an then goes round the bow and hooks back onto the wrist section.
It seems to me that a Jubilee clip could be fitted round the barrel of the release. Before tightening it down, you could fit one end of the rope under the clip(permanently)and make a little hook to put under the clip too.
You may get away without the hook, though. There is a little lever on the opposite side from the trigger. If the end of the rope from the Jubilee clip. had a loop on the free end, that could be hooked over the lever. I'm not sure now whether that would hinder the action of the lever or not. It would be worth a little experiment.
If the Jubilee clip won't work the rope could be tied to the threaded rod that is under the rubber tube(the one that adjusts the length)Fitting the rope to the barrel end of the threaded rod would be better, not the wrist strap end.
 

The Meggy

Active member
I had a loopmaster, snap!
The rope should be fixed to the release aid at one end and able to hook up to the release aid using the other end, after going round the string. A bit like a wrist sling attaches to the wrist an then goes round the bow and hooks back onto the wrist section.
It seems to me that a Jubilee clip could be fitted round the barrel of the release. Before tightening it down, you could fit one end of the rope under the clip(permanently)and make a little hook to put under the clip too.
You may get away without the hook, though. There is a little lever on the opposite side from the trigger. If the end of the rope from the Jubilee clip. had a loop on the free end, that could be hooked over the lever. I'm not sure now whether that would hinder the action of the lever or not. It would be worth a little experiment.
If the Jubilee clip won't work the rope could be tied to the threaded rod that is under the rubber tube(the one that adjusts the length)Fitting the rope to the barrel end of the threaded rod would be better, not the wrist strap end.
Thank you for those excellent suggestions Geoff :thumbsup:. I think both ideas have potential mileage - they might seem obvious to yourself, but somehow I just don't think in this sort of way so I doubt I would have come up with them myself. I reckon I'll try putting the rope round the threaded rod first as it seems the simplest way (and simple is good with me!) but may well go for the jubilee clip if I find the rod attachment not quite right for any reason. I don't think the action of the little lever would be hindered, although I'm slightly dubious (please forgive me) about using it as a hook since it is not part of the main body of the release and I'm not sure how much strain it could take when used in this way. I do seem to remember you saying once that you had a loopmaster, although I think you also said you preferred the "short and sweet" model? Cheers again!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thye Meggy, I see what you mean about not wanting to use the little lever as a hook. It's some time since I had mine and it could be too delicate for the job.
I have a foot of broom handle with a bow string attached to each end. It is just long enough for me to hook my release aid onto and stand in my full draw posture as the bow string pulls tight.(it looks like a massive d-loop when I'm at full draw, if you can imagine that.) I frequently use that to get used to new release aids etc. It might be worth setting up your "adapted release" onto some thing similar. You can pull really hard when the bowstring is pulled tight and see what could happen with a real bow, before trying it on one. It could be useful to try different amounts of slack and to find out where the rope needs to be on your release aid. A dry fire is not something we want.
Talking of dry firing; why do some archers get really upset if they hear someone say, "Firing a bow and arrow"? Dry firing seems to go unnoticed!!!
 

The Meggy

Active member
Indeed we do not want a dry fire! :covereyes I have a string loop (just a loop of thin rope set to my draw length) which I could use to test, although I like the sound of your broom handle device. Another thought I have is that the extra rope loop from the release should perhaps go round the bow string rather than through the D-loop. Then in the unlikely (but possible) event of the D-loop failing the bow would not dry fire. Plus this would leave more room for the release to hook onto the D-loop without interference.
 

The Meggy

Active member
Talking of dry firing; why do some archers get really upset if they hear someone say, "Firing a bow and arrow"? Dry firing seems to go unnoticed!!!
I admit I'm one of those that prefer to shoot rather than "fire" arrows but also admit I have never noticed the anomaly with the term "dry fire". I wonder when this term was first used? Given the bang you get with a dry fire though it may not be quite so inappropriate!
 
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