Need advice upgrading Olympic recurve limbs and arrows

andysor

New member
I got started in this sport pretty much exactly a year ago. I have an SF Forged+ riser, 29" draw length and have gone through SF Axiom+ 26#, 32#, 34# and now 36# limbs. They're all wound in now and I feel I'm ready to settle on an expensive pair of smoother, more high performance limbs.


I thought I was decided on a set of SF Elite+ carbon/foam 40# as I assume when would out would be approx. equal to my 36# Axiom+ limbs wound in, but faster, and that with an upgrade to Easton Carbon One arrows I'd get better sight marks on 70m (currently sight is all the way at the bottom on full extension) with room to settle on 40# on the middle setting on my riser bolts.


However 40# Elite+ limbs are on backorder and I need to wait 5 weeks! My option is either 38# or 42# limbs of the same type, or the more expensive Win&Win Rapido or similar. Any thoughts? Are the Win&Win limbs measured the same? I've heard that they tend to be slightly heavier than other brands of the same poundage.


Another question relating to arrows: My current trusty Easton Eclipse XX75s are rated at 510 spine, but are shortened all the way to the clicker, so I'm unsure if Carbon Ones in 500 or 450 spine would be best fit if I want to lengthen them approximately 2".

Appreciate any help as I would like to order soon to have something nice to train with over the summer!
 

Mufti

Member
Let's start with the obvious question;

Why do you want to increase the poundage of the limbs?
Is it because you cannot reach the required distance or have you been advised to go heavier?
36lbs at 29" seems fine for most eventualities to me.

I suggest you go for some lighter arrows (ACC or even ACE), your sight marks will improve dramatically with a lighter arrow so you will no longer be at the bottom of the adjustment.
 

andysor

New member
Let's start with the obvious question;

Why do you want to increase the poundage of the limbs?
Is it because you cannot reach the required distance or have you been advised to go heavier?
36lbs at 29" seems fine for most eventualities to me.

I suggest you go for some lighter arrows (ACC or even ACE), your sight marks will improve dramatically with a lighter arrow so you will no longer be at the bottom of the adjustment.
I don't really want to go heavier, just to have limbs that are where I'm at at the moment with room for adjustment up or down. Being all wound in at 36# seems less flexible than in the middle at 40#. I'm worried that 38# SF Elite+ will need to be wound up a bit to maintain the weight I'm at now.

Regarding the arrows, ACE are really expensive compared to Carbon Ones and I'm hoping to get into some field archery soon = lost arrows...
 

mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Two comments, if your happy at the weight your drawing now, I wouldnt be too worried about going up far, I shoot 36# limbs and shoot 100 yds easily.

CArbon one arrows, just make sure your club allows the use of all carbon arrows as they cannot be found with a metal detector. I know my club does not allow them to be used outdoors.

For me, I would get the 38lb limbs and some ACC's, be a very very good set up which will see you through to at least a first class score, maybe bowman if your good enough?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
I got started in this sport pretty much exactly a year ago. I have an SF Forged+ riser, 29" draw length and have gone through SF Axiom+ 26#, 32#, 34# and now 36# limbs. They're all wound in now and I feel I'm ready to settle on an expensive pair of smoother, more high performance limbs.
A really good steady sensible progress through the weights.

I thought I was decided on a set of SF Elite+ carbon/foam 40# as I assume when would out would be approx. equal to my 36# Axiom+ limbs wound in, but faster, and that with an upgrade to Easton Carbon One arrows I'd get better sight marks on 70m (currently sight is all the way at the bottom on full extension) with room to settle on 40# on the middle setting on my riser bolts.
Worth checking with the manufacturer or on here, or you might already know, but some manufacturers spec their limbs fully wound in and some half wound in. I can't remember how SF/Win spec their limbs.

However 40# Elite+ limbs are on backorder and I need to wait 5 weeks! My option is either 38# or 42# limbs of the same type, or the more expensive Win&Win Rapido or similar. Any thoughts? Are the Win&Win limbs measured the same? I've heard that they tend to be slightly heavier than other brands of the same poundage.
42# is a big jump, even wound down you might be surprised just how heavy they feel. Worth testing a pair out before buying.

Another question relating to arrows: My current trusty Easton Eclipse XX75s are rated at 510 spine, but are shortened all the way to the clicker, so I'm unsure if Carbon Ones in 500 or 450 spine would be best fit if I want to lengthen them approximately 2".
If you can shoot them at your club Carbon Ones are fantastic value for money. I shoot protour at 90 and 70m but go to Carbon One for 50 and 30m to save damage to my protours. Obviously you can find them with a metal detector you just have to look of the pile and go a bit slower and maybe check a few false indications. A few tournamounts ban them but very few, worth checking out your preferred tournaments if you shoot any. Check out the Easton arrow chart selector, I found it works very well for carbon ones. Limb spine will be dependent on the weight you are holding not the limb spec so difficult to say with the info you supplied.
 

fbirder

Member
Worth checking with the manufacturer or on here, or you might already know, but some manufacturers spec their limbs fully wound in and some half wound in. I can't remember how SF/Win spec their limbs.
It's the riser that determines this. So a pair of limbs marked 40lb will be 40lb fully out on a SF/W&W riser, giving an adjustable range of about 40-42lb. The same limbs on a Hoyt riser will be 40lb when halfway, giving a range of 39-41lb, approximately.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
It's the riser that determines this. So a pair of limbs marked 40lb will be 40lb fully out on a SF/W&W riser, giving an adjustable range of about 40-42lb. The same limbs on a Hoyt riser will be 40lb when halfway, giving a range of 39-41lb, approximately.
Er, no. It's how the limb is measured. If the limb manufacturer measures a limb mid way, then at some point in the adjustment range on *any* riser you should reach that weight at 28. A set of Hoyt limbs (marked mid-range) should hit the marked weight mid-range on a samick, W&W, Border, Hoyt, or any other riser. Maybe not at the "same" mid-range position, however (that is riser dependent).

Where it gets tricky is if the mfr measures at the "bottom" of the range, as most seem to. Because that's a purely notional position, based on how far out they wind whatever riser or test equipment they set up for their measurements.
You may not achieve that weight at the bottom of the adjustment range (or where you believe that to be) on a particular riser.

I don't think there's an interchangeable fitting manufacturer that measures at the top end (but I'm willing to be corrected on that).

But the bottom line is that the only way to be sure of the weight of a particular set of limbs, is to fit them to your riser and measure them. They should be in the ballpark of the marked weight (allowing for draw length), but could be a few pounds up or down depending on other factors. It's easier to make comparisons with limbs of the same model, of course. Different models from the same manufacturer may also be fairly comparable. After that it's a bit of a lottery.
 

andysor

New member
So I went to the range and chatted to some other shooters. I just ordered the W&W Rapido limbs in 38# and Carbon One arrows.
If I can't reach the 70m with ease now I'll be bummed...
Thanks for the advice!
 

fbirder

Member
Er, no. It's how the limb is measured. If the limb manufacturer measures a limb mid way, then at some point in the adjustment range on *any* riser you should reach that weight at 28.
Ah, yes. That makes sense.
 

Bertybobby

New member
So I went to the range and chatted to some other shooters. I just ordered the W&W Rapido limbs in 38# and Carbon One arrows.
If I can't reach the 70m with ease now I'll be bummed...
Thanks for the advice!
Easy. I have 40# limbs and a 26" draw length and Carbon Ones. I shoot to 90m although about on the limit of my sight.
 

EvadingGrid

New member
PLUS ONE AND A QUARTER INCHES

Far East manufacturers measure the Draw Length ever so slightly different to the Americans and Europeans.

I have yet to meet an archer that correctly understands how manufacturers measure draw length. Most have a misguided notion that weight is measured 28 inches from the pressure button to the nock...

PLUS ONE AND A QUARTER INCHES
----------------------------------------------

The AMO adds a mythical 1 inch and 3/4 inch . . . .
The Koreans use a different mythical measure and going on memory its 1/2 inch different.

On a 40lb bow, as a rule of thumb, 1 inch is 4.4 lbs of weight . . .
So a 1/2 difference would appear as 2.2 lbs difference.


TAKE NOTE

Assuming you really do have actual 40 lb limbs, and your draw length really is 28 ", you are NOT holding 40lbs on your fingers.

When you are 1 and 3/4 inches from your 28" full draw you are holding 40lbs.
When you actually draw the extra 1 3/4 inches, you going to add something like 7.7 lbs.


I've seen this by using a clicker and a very expensive digital scales.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Far East manufacturers measure the Draw Length ever so slightly different to the Americans and Europeans.

I have yet to meet an archer that correctly understands how manufacturers measure draw length. Most have a misguided notion that weight is measured 28 inches from the pressure button to the nock...

PLUS ONE AND A QUARTER INCHES
----------------------------------------------

The AMO adds a mythical 1 inch and 3/4 inch . . . .
The Koreans use a different mythical measure and going on memory its 1/2 inch different.

On a 40lb bow, as a rule of thumb, 1 inch is 4.4 lbs of weight . . .
So a 1/2 difference would appear as 2.2 lbs difference.


TAKE NOTE

Assuming you really do have actual 40 lb limbs, and your draw length really is 28 ", you are NOT holding 40lbs on your fingers.

When you are 1 and 3/4 inches from your 28" full draw you are holding 40lbs.
When you actually draw the extra 1 3/4 inches, you going to add something like 7.7 lbs.


I've seen this by using a clicker and a very expensive digital scales.
Nearly there... You forgot that marked weight may be +- a pound and still be "accurate" and that some manufacturers weigh limbs in the middle of the range and some at the lower end (not forgetting that "lower" end can vary due to differences in the riser design).
And that if your draw length "really is" 28 inches then to the button that is 26.75 (also called "draw length to pivot point"), so if you draw 28 inches to the button, your draw length "really is" 29.75.
A better rule of thumb is 5% of draw weight per inch, for conventional geometry limbs, so for 40lb limbs measured at the bottom end, that may give between about 42.5 and 44.5 lbs, approx. Mid-weighed limbs would be different, of course. And no-one actually works to a standard...

That's why the normal best advice is "weigh them" and state what the weight OTF is. Forget draw length. Doesn't matter.

<edit> and yes this all tends to get pointed out every time someone comes on here and says something like "I've got 34lb limbs and my draw length is 30 inches, what arrows do I need?"
 

EvadingGrid

New member
Nearly there... You forgot that marked weight may be +- a pound and still be "accurate" and that some manufacturers weigh limbs in the middle of the range and some at the lower end (not forgetting that "lower" end can vary due to differences in the riser design).
And that if your draw length "really is" 28 inches then to the button that is 26.75 (also called "draw length to pivot point"), so if you draw 28 inches to the button, your draw length "really is" 29.75.
A better rule of thumb is 5% of draw weight per inch, for conventional geometry limbs, so for 40lb limbs measured at the bottom end, that may give between about 42.5 and 44.5 lbs, approx. Mid-weighed limbs would be different, of course. And no-one actually works to a standard...

That's why the normal best advice is "weigh them" and state what the weight OTF is. Forget draw length. Doesn't matter.

<edit> and yes this all tends to get pointed out every time someone comes on here and says something like "I've got 34lb limbs and my draw length is 30 inches, what arrows do I need?"
I think we mostly agree.


I posted that because so many other people had previously replied with mythical old wives tales.


It is a surprisingly big topic, as are we talking about sorting out some aluminium arrows for some beginner, or are we talking about somebody with correct form and high quality kit. I'll ignore ILF Hybrid Bows, because that is an even more contentious topic.

The biggest spanner in the works, would be the archers form - Most archers do not know bio-mechanical true draw length, but think what they usually draw is correct. That splits into, what you "actually draw" and what you "should draw".

As to spring balance and a measuring arrow, I have a rather low opinion of that method as executed by two of the countries leading archery shops.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Yes. Form and execution are things it's really not easy to deal with in an online forum. You have to just take it as read and hope that it's good, or that some local assistance can sort it out.

What do you mean by ILF hybrid? Formula?
 

EvadingGrid

New member
Yes. Form and execution are things it's really not easy to deal with in an online forum. You have to just take it as read and hope that it's good, or that some local assistance can sort it out.

What do you mean by ILF hybrid? Formula?
ILF International Limb Fit :
When people mix and match different manufacturers limbs and risers.
With ILF limbs they should always physicaly fit an ILF riser,
BUT the geometry can go FUBAR.

Draw Length :
To avoid measuring bad form, measure the arm span because your measuring the Bones not the the Form.
 

EvadingGrid

New member
I'm not sure how measuring arm span equates to good draw length.
http://www.huntersfriend.com/images/bow_sizing_adjustment_guide/measdl-short.jpg

Picture Says it clearly, some people call it "Calculated Draw Length".

More than one method for measuring draw length, but most are dependent on the archer and form. This method just measures Bone Size, which is what makes it useful as it has absolutely nothing to do with Form.

Of course, measuring the nock to pivot point method sounds better, and is probably the most common method. But since most normal archers have very bad form, it only measures bad form.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Ahh that picture, I thought you were thinking of something different.
I still don't think the formula is that accurate; the bones don't take into account where the chin fits in, and they don't all fit a standard size/position relative to bow hand.
I can see that some archers can end up with a draw length that is some way from the best they might use. That isn't to do with measuring an arrow at any full draw posture and then sticking to it.It's to do with measuring at a poor posture; and for what reason?
Finding an archer's good full draw posture takes a bit of time. Some seem to fall into a very good posture almost from the first shots. Some need a lot of help as they don't readily adopt even a fair posture. Their shoulders go out of line as they draw and are not aware they are doing that. They are not easily able to prevent it in some cases either, even when it has been pointed out on video or demonstrated by a coach.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
ILF International Limb Fit :
When people mix and match different manufacturers limbs and risers.
With ILF limbs they should always physicaly fit an ILF riser,
BUT the geometry can go FUBAR.
You just have to remember that ILF is a myth. People copied the Hoyt fitting on the GM, more or less. But there has never been an ILF - no standard, no agreed set of measurements. So of course you can't guarantee that one manufacturer's limbs will fit another's handle. That so many are more or less interchangeable, is frankly, a miracle :)
 

EvadingGrid

New member
Ahh that picture, I thought you were thinking of something different.
I still don't think the formula is that accurate; the bones don't take into account where the chin fits in, and they don't all fit a standard size/position relative to bow hand.
I can see that some archers can end up with a draw length that is some way from the best they might use. That isn't to do with measuring an arrow at any full draw posture and then sticking to it.It's to do with measuring at a poor posture; and for what reason?

Finding an archer's good full draw posture takes a bit of time. Some seem to fall into a very good posture almost from the first shots. Some need a lot of help as they don't readily adopt even a fair posture. Their shoulders go out of line as they draw and are not aware they are doing that. They are not easily able to prevent it in some cases either, even when it has been pointed out on video or demonstrated by a coach.
I agree.

Its not that accurate, but I do dare to suggest that the margin of error is a heck of lot smaller than the measuring stick.

Things like personal preference for anchor point, don't change the draw length by that much. On the other hand some of the Bad Form I've seen most definitely can change the draw by several inches. One time, we had a beginner that had bought some limbs that simply stacked so much that the draw was too short by inches.

Anyway, its just my observation and preference to measure things as accurately as possible.

I also find doing the math and "proving" it mentally very reassuring, while others would rather have teeth pulled than calculate anything.
 
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