[Horsebow] Horsebow frustration...........

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
I appreciate this has been covered before (http://www.archery-interchange.net/...cceptance-grand-national-archery-society.html), but there are very few horsebowmen at my club, and i think i'm the only one that "competes" (lol) with one, so i don't really know where i stand.

Obviously thanks to the powers that be, up there in that great big ivory tower with GNAS written on it, as a horsebowman, i'm considered to be shooting barebow, and as such i'm strugglin to acheive third class (another near miss today). However if you check the tables, but assume my scores are generated with a longbow, i'm nocking on the door to 2nd class.

So my question is, am i crap?! Sorry to be blunt, but like i said, i've not got much to compare it with. I have been keeping an eye on fleebay for a longbow, but at the prices they're going at i may as well get a new one. Is it even worth making the switch, or are horsebows that much "better" that i'd notice the drop performance?

Anyways, another comp next weekend (and if no one else shows up with a barbow, another medal, lol) so i'll muddle on for now, and keep trying, i'm just unsure of where to go from here.

Thanks for listening to my rant! lol
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
dude
there were 2 horsebow'ers in my club 6 months ago ... now you cant move on the shooting line for the things :). We use them for field with target just being for practice. We even have an interclub trad field competition...

Scroll of Honour

Find yourself a field course where you'll appreciate healthy bracing walks in the woods AND you get to shoot up the scenery! :D
 

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
This is something that we have discussed at our club several times, as we have about 6 regulars shooting horsebow style recurves, and a growing trad following. We have considered putting forward a proposal but we're not sure how it would go down given the current Trad classifications, and if it would even be considered/looked at.

At the moment, Horsebows fall into the Trad category which covers a large variety of bows that have varying performance advantages over each other. This meaning the Hunnish bow with no rest is up against a modern recurve barebow, with all the advantages of a bow window, rest, button, modern laminate limbs etc but is shot using wooden arrows... hardly a fair match up.

The proposed idea was to seperate 'horsebows' from the other trad bows by giving them thier own category, under which they can be shot either off fingers or using a thumb release as this is recognised as a traditional method for this bow. This negates the 'release aid' arguement as they are now only up against other horsebows, with the option of using one. The normal trad style shooters will not be up against them. The proposed category would cater for modern material horsebows ( the vast majority sold being fiberglass core ) and also wooden/fibreglass hybrids, TRH laminates and hornbows. A one stop shop for the style.

The name of the category was something we had considered and Traditional Recurve is a little too vague as it can cover the one piece recurves, takedowns, modern bows etc as well so my idea for this was Asiatic Traditional, making the new categories ( in a perfect world ) ....

Longbow
Traditional
Asiatic Traditional

New classification scores could be generated for this class, giving the shooters thier own realistic scores to aim for.

Its just an idea :raspberry
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
in several pub discussions we felt that the longbow and the horse bow are similar enough (especially in field) that they fit in a single class.

American flat bow was more in step with the barebow category than trad.

we also couldnt figure out a way to put pressure on gnas to look at the classifications but then the whole handicapping/classification system is a mess with gnas not even owning it!
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
We have considered putting forward a proposal but we're not sure how it would go down given the current Trad classifications, and if it would even be considered/looked at.

The proposed idea was to seperate 'horsebows' from the other trad bows by giving them thier own category, under which they can be shot either off fingers or using a thumb release as this is recognised as a traditional method for this bow. This negates the 'release aid' arguement as they are now only up against other horsebows, with the option of using one. The normal trad style shooters will not be up against them. The proposed category would cater for modern material horsebows ( the vast majority sold being fiberglass core ) and also wooden/fibreglass hybrids, TRH laminates and hornbows. A one stop shop for the style.
This sounds like a really sensible move. Surely if enough people lobby for this it stands a chance? Is there any way of finding out how many archers this might apply to in the UK?
 

Stikphlinger

New member
in several pub discussions we felt that the longbow and the horse bow are similar enough (especially in field) that they fit in a single class.

American flat bow was more in step with the barebow category than trad. QUOTE]

I don't shoot one of these bows, but would like to try at some time. My interest is in the historical 'what if' of the Mongol hordes fighting against European longbowmen, so Rabid's suggestion of having modern HBs in competition against modern LBs is intriguing - although, of course the HBs now have glassfibre laminations, while English LBs aren't allowed them.

From what you say Rabid, the key feature making the biggest difference in shooting between the LB/HB types (no arrow rest) and most AFB/Hunter Recurves (as some of these bows have a shelf/rest and some don't) is the arrow rest or lack of one.

It certainly sounds a reasonable assumption. So perhaps it should be a rest or not a rest that is the question?

____________________

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana
 

Naedre

Member
welcome to the madhouse. i understand your frustration with the horsebow problem. when i first joined my club, i was a keen horsebow fan, and hoped to enter some competitions ( i naively thought the playing field was level). but then i got bogged down in the swamp of 'categorization'.

like the american flat bow, a horsebow will outshoot a longbow due to its superior shape and design, (so can't compete fairly against longbow)

horsebow archers tend to use wooden arrows, so can't fairly compete with modern arrows. so it would seem that the only slot that a horse archer fits is if he shoots barebow, and uses carbon arrows.

Which brings me to another question. How far do we go when it comes to the word 'traditional'.

no glass fibre?
no laminated longbows?
no bamboo?
no modern adhesives?
no use of modern tools?

it would seem that we all have to make compromises, so i went with longbow, (the hardest discipline). i would suggest that if your stomache can take it, buy some carbon arrows for your horsebow, and shoot in the barebow category.
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
guys
Firstly I think I should say I shoot a 30lbs Samick SKB50 (it was my rehab bow from shoulder surgery and now I use it to shoot field) so I may show a little bias to my little friend.

The shelf (giving a stable regular platform for the arrow) is extremely important to accurate shooting. I've seen noob archers shoot an AFB quite accurately after 5 minutes practice. Shooting off the hand is another matter entirely. I think this more than shape and materials is the fundamental difference between the categories of horse/longbow and AFB/modern barebow and why you cant mix the two groups fairly.

The modern materials are a relatively minor consideration when you consider the draw, anchor, hand position, loose and wooden arrow. I would tend to ignore the material of the bow (spot the SKB50 bias) but enforce the wooden arrow rule - I feel the longbow purity of material is a side effect of 'english archery tradition' snobbery ignoring of course the modern tools used to make them or the well nourished, educated bowyer doing the making.
This would lump longbow and horsebow together in a traditional category of bows shot off the hand with wooden arrows. The aforementioned advantage of horsebow shape over longbow is a moot point ... did the medieval archer complain to the mongol/hun/avar horseman taking potshots? ... I think not! ;) I would even throw in the japanese Yumi to this category and let the medieval/feudal archers battle it out. If one type of bow proves superior ... then we'll have solved one mystery of weapon superiority.

As to making gnas take notice ... gnas doesnt have time for the grassroots archer. just look at the way the society is run - hap-hazard, directionless and quite often spinning aimlessly on the spot for years. Short of storming gnas towers with our horsebows I doubt they would give us the time of day.
 

Naedre

Member
a quick example of how much better the HB is over the LB.

When i first joined my club, i shot a York round with my 50lb Grozer Assyrian, and shot a score of 535. My best York round with my 60lb bickerstaffe LB is 487. i use same draw, anchor, hand position, loose and wooden arrows with both, and they were both shot from the back of the hand. There is no doubt at all, Horsebows will win every time.
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
Naedre ...

mibi you just prefer your horsebow and as a result you shoot better with it. ;)

mibi Grozer is a better bowyer than Bickerstaffe :stirthepo

mibi the archery gods love the horsebow more than the longbow :pray:

:D
 

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
Short of storming gnas towers with our horsebows I doubt they would give us the time of day.
you bring the ponies and i'll bring the airag!!! But do we need to wear GNAS regulation traditional white/green Mongol costumes, or is a traditionally traditional colour suitable, instead of the semi-traditional victorian image of the tradition?! lol

I 2nd the Samick as an awesome bow, i'm shooting mine at 45lbs and regulary over shoot at 100yrds!! I'd like to go higher with it (poundage) but wont buy a new one till this one breaks or noticably losses efficiancy.

So how would a 60lbs longbow compare to my 45lbs horsebow?

And, does anyone shop from the Hungarian feller on eBay? His GNAS regulation longbows are too expensive, but his cheaper "longbowish" bows obviously arent "regulation" (no horn nocks, arrow shelves etc). Anyone know if he could do something custom? Not too keen on ordering from abroad, but if he's got a good rep i'd use him.
 

Rabid Hamster

Well-known member
Ironman
you bring the ponies and i'll bring the airag!!! But do we need to wear GNAS regulation traditional white/green Mongol costumes, or is a traditionally traditional colour suitable, instead of the semi-traditional victorian image of the tradition?! lol
.
as long as you've got your little furry hat on ... no problem!

 

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
You can always put a leather handle on your horsebow, giving it a rest in effect. For my wife's bows and my own ( Grozer Old Scythian, Kassai Deer, Kassai Wolf II and Grozer TRH Laminate Crimean Tartar ) we have optional leather handles that you slide over and lace up, and the leather at the top is folded over double so if you pack it with another small piece of leather under the grip, it makes an impromptu shelf. The arrow will still fall off if you dont cant the bow slightly, but it gives it a nice consistent placing .

I can put a pic up if you want to see what I mean.
 

Si2

New member
horsebow archers tend to use wooden arrows, so can't fairly compete with modern arrows. so it would seem that the only slot that a horse archer fits is if he shoots barebow, and uses carbon arrows.
Would carbon arrows work with a bow with no rebate through the handle?
Do the arrows not need to curve around the handle - I guess if you get carbon arrows of the correct spine they should work?

Which brings me to another question. How far do we go when it comes to the word 'traditional'.

no glass fibre?
no laminated longbows?
no bamboo?
no modern adhesives?
no use of modern tools?
That's a great point and one that should be clearly laid out in the regulations. It seems that it is very difficult to prevent people using the knowledge and materials we have access to these days to improve the performance of current bows. Even the traditionally, most traditional class - the longbow; allows laminated bows made up of woods and adhesives not even heard of in the times when the Longbow was in widespread use...

regards
Simon
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
You can always put a leather handle on your horsebow, giving it a rest in effect. For my wife's bows and my own ( Grozer Old Scythian, Kassai Deer, Kassai Wolf II and Grozer TRH Laminate Crimean Tartar ) we have optional leather handles that you slide over and lace up, and the leather at the top is folded over double so if you pack it with another small piece of leather under the grip, it makes an impromptu shelf. The arrow will still fall off if you dont cant the bow slightly, but it gives it a nice consistent placing .

I can put a pic up if you want to see what I mean.
Yes please - a pic would be very useful. Looking forward to seeing this!
 

N.Vodden

New member
Ironman
Yes please - a pic would be very useful. Looking forward to seeing this!
Happy to oblige :)

heres one showing the way the grip is laced on, you can see the bulge from a second piece of belt leather held underneath to pad the side out for a rest.



And from the shooters point of view, showing the rest area it creates.



This one and the one i use sometimes on the Scyth were made for me by ^HUN^, and i shamelessly copied them for the other bows :raspberry
 

Dorset Lass

New member
Ironman
Thanks so much that is very useful. Nice job you've made of it too!

I have the Kaya bow and this has an integral widened leather covered handle area which I guess would work in the same way. I use it as a reference point to get consistent grip on the bow, but I hadn't really thought of it in terms of an arrow rest. If I was going to use it in that way I think I would need to reinforce it with extra leather. Hmmm food for thought, thanks again.
 

Naedre

Member
Si2
Carbon arrows will shoot through a horsebow, no problem. the small handle makes the arrow lie more centrally, so the dreaded archers paradox has less effect. you still need to have arrows spined for your bow though, to make sure the fletches clear the bow handle as they pass.

I only mention the traditional aspect, as some people shudder if you even hint at using something like plastic nocks. Strangely enough, they all seem to fletch with Turkey feathers.

Rabid,
mibi i've lost my edge. I think i'll have to get my Assyrian out and see if i can still hit anything with it.
 

ChakaZulu

New member
Never mind all this stuff about starting a new category for horsebows. There is already a whole sport for horsebows. It's called horseback archery!

Check out the British Horseback Archery Association and the Centre of Horseback Combat. You can start at a walk with somebody leading the horse, so you don't have to be a rider, but I guarantee that you'll want to be once you've had a go and seen people charging down the run shooting!

Even once you get into it, you really don't have to be a great rider - the horse knows what it's doing and you just have to sit there.

Let them try that with an olympic recurve...
 

Si2

New member
Never mind all this stuff about starting a new category for horsebows. There is already a whole sport for horsebows. It's called horseback archery!

Check out the British Horseback Archery Association and the Centre of Horseback Combat. You can start at a walk with somebody leading the horse, so you don't have to be a rider, but I guarantee that you'll want to be once you've had a go and seen people charging down the run shooting!

Even once you get into it, you really don't have to be a great rider - the horse knows what it's doing and you just have to sit there.

Let them try that with an olympic recurve...
Looks fantastic fun but a little out of my price range for regular shooting...

I did my first Windsor round with the Samick SKB today, also the first time I've ever shot 60 yards.
I actually got a 3rd class barebow score with 280, even though I only managed to get all six arrows scoring on one end; the last one!
It's a massive jump to 2nd class though in BB. I might just have to try those carbon shafts...
A lot of practice to be done.

Si
 
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