FITA 'Longbow' rules

blakey

Active member
Don't know which forum would be the best to discuss this on, but I'm floundering, so I thought I'd try here?
"Archery Australia has adopted FITA longbow rules." unquote.
Which somehow has come out with 2 or 3 piece take-downs made out of any material. Which means ally risers would be allowed with adjustable straight(ish) ILF limbs. Minimum length of 63", which is shorter than the average recurve.
I've lodged an objection to this with AA because to me it seems risible. While I am awaiting developments it has occurred to me, belatedly of course, that I can hardly blame Archery Australia for a FITA ruling. I was wondering whether one of you members of the EEC, and the headquarters of FITA, could explain to me how FITA has come up with this descriptor of a 'longbow'?
The AA preamble does commence with the statement that the bow must conform to the traditional shape of a 'longbow.' Later they say that centreshot risers are allowed. I'm very confused about how this has evolved or been interpreted so that now FITA is in fact promoting 'Modern American Flatbow' under the guise of 'longbow'?
This might very well be old news to you lot, but I would appreciate some help in getting to grips with this. One of my comrades has told me that FITA speaks French, and it's all a fiendish Parisian plot to get their own back for something? Can't think what? But obviously someone foreign don't quite get wot a 'Longbow' is? What is the history of this 'Short Flat Bow' contretemps? Merci.
 

SHADOW-MKII

New member
Blakey here are the FITA Longbow rules

Note that they only apply to Field Archery

9.3.1.4 Longbow.
The bow will correspond to the traditional form of a long bow which means that
when strung the string may not touch any other part of the bow but the string nocks.
The bow may be made from any type of material or combination of material. The
shape of the grip and the limbs are not restricted. Center shot is allowed.
9.3.1.4.1 For Juniors and Women the bow will not be less than 150cm in
length, for Men the bow will be not less than 160cm in length –
this length being measured between the string nocks.

As you have been advised before There is NO Longbow division in FITA Outdoor Target Archery.

What Archery Australia did was use the FITA Field Longbow rules to allow people such as yourself to shoot alongside the Recurve's and Compound's in Archery Australia sanctioned events.

They have since modified those rules to allow more people to compete.

The Archery Australia Longbow Rules

http://www.archerysqas.org.au/administration/archery_australia/mediarelease201010.pdf

http://www.archerysqas.org.au/administration/archery_australia/8.3longbowequipment.pdf

Can you please define "Longbow" for us so we know what you are objecting to?
 

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
I never thought i'd say this but, GNAS have got something right!

Thats not a longbow, just a "crap recurve" class.

And the French should know plenty about longbows, they've spent enough time on the recieving end of them.
 

Sky Kite

New member
Errr .... sorry, but have I got this right ....

Because the length of the bow is measured unstrung, I could turn my recurve bow into a FITA longbow by just using a very short string ?

(Doesn't sound right to me !)

Edited to add:- I'm not a historian and I'm only a newbie archer, but I would have thought that the definition of a longbow should include something about it being 'straight' when unstrung (obviously allowing for some minor variation for set etc).
 

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
Errr .... sorry, but have I got this right ....

Because the length of the bow is measured unstrung, I could turn my recurve bow into a FITA longbow by just using a very short string ?

(Doesn't sound right to me !)
as long as the string only touches the string nocks, and not the back of the limbs (that bit where the groove is) then yeah.

if you took the arrow rest off your riser, and used the cut out as an arrow shelf, put natural feathers on your arrows you've basically got a FITA longbow. load of complete b0110x
 

tinkerer

New member
The point of a recurve is that the string does touch the back of the limb when strung. What FITA have in mind is what most of the world have in mind when they say longbow. A pity maybe but there you go.

David
 

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
The point of a recurve is that the string does touch the back of the limb when strung. What FITA have in mind is what most of the world have in mind when they say longbow. A pity maybe but there you go.

David
True, but if you can just swap your limbs over to non-recurve limbs (Border probably make some?) and stick them onto your recurve riser, how is that even remotely a longbow class? It's still a barebow recurve, just with different limbs. They might aswell not bother at all.
 

Sky Kite

New member
Deleted Post - coz I now realise my idea for a new classification method was probably a bit daft - Sorry ! :ashamed:
 

English Bowman

Well-known member
as long as the string only touches the string nocks, and not the back of the limbs (that bit where the groove is) then yeah.

if you took the arrow rest off your riser, and used the cut out as an arrow shelf, put natural feathers on your arrows you've basically got a FITA longbow. load of complete b0110x
Sorry, you mean belly, the back of the bow is the part of the bow away from the archer, the belly is the side toward the archer, I thought being a longbowman, you'd know this!
 

Sky Kite

New member
Sorry, you mean belly, the back of the bow is the part of the bow away from the archer, the belly is the side toward the archer, I thought being a longbowman, you'd know this!
Ah but, in his defence (not that he needs me to defend him), he was addressing his post to me and I'm too thick to have noticed ! :)

And I do understand that there won't be any benefit to me putting a really short string on my recurve - that is, unless I notice that no one else has entered in that class and I fancy a prize !

Still seems a bit daft to me that unstrung 'straightness' of the bow isn't included somewhere in the rules. I'll be brave this time and leave it up so, what about:

Total unstrung length of bow must be at least X cm/inches; the string can only touch the bow at the string nocks; under its own weight, the unstrung bow must be able to pass through a rigid walled tube of internal diameter no greater than Y cm/inches that is at least as long as the bow.

The 'under its own weight' bit is to stop people forcing a recurve through by bending its limbs to fit inside the tube.

I leave this up knowing that I already removed it once, coz it might be a bit daft ! :)
 

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
Sorry, you mean belly, the back of the bow is the part of the bow away from the archer, the belly is the side toward the archer, I thought being a longbowman, you'd know this!
sorry, i was giving stupid plastic, early learning centre answers to a stupid plastic, early learning centre class of bow!!! I refuse to apply Longbow terminology to such a joke of a long-bow class.

Not that i'm pretentious in any way, shape or form! lol
 

blakey

Active member
Can you please define "Longbow" for us so we know what you are objecting to?
Hi there. First up I didn't expect to be discussing this with a fellow Aussie on this Forum. Second, I readily acknowledge that Archery Australia is run by volunteers, a true bunch of unsung heroes, and I know that this latest 'simplification' is a genuine attempt to clarify. AA states that it is attempting to rectify the current 'confusion'. A key word, as I also believe is their use of 'traditional', as in 'traditional form of a longbow.' If you run Google searches on "definition of longbow" you will get heaps of hits, viz:

"A long, hand-drawn bow, such as that used in medieval England, which sometimes exceeded 6 feet (1.8 meters) in length."
The Free Online Dictionary.

Translations: French: "arc long anglais." Allwords.com

longbow - Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

Longbow \Long"bow`\, n.
"The ordinary bow, not mounted on a stock; -- so called in
distinction from the crossbow when both were used as
weapons of war. Also, sometimes, such a bow of about the
height of a man, as distinguished from a much shorter one."
[1913 Webster]


Definition of LONGBOW
:" a hand-drawn wooden bow held vertically and used especially by medieval English archers." Merriam-Webster

The most useful ones for me personally are these ones describing 'flatbows', which define the 'longbow' by default:

Reference.com

"A flatbow is a bow with non- recurved, flat, relatively wide limbs that are approximately rectangular in cross-section. Because the limbs are relatively wide, flatbows will usually narrow and become deeper at the handle, with a rounded, non-bending, handle for easier grip. This design differs from that of a longbow, which has rounded limbs that are circular or D shaped in cross-section, and is usually widest at the handle. Traditional flatbows are usually wooden selfbows (bows made of one solid piece of wood), though laminated and composite flatbows have been made in ancient and modern times".

American flatbow
"The American Flatbow (AFB), also known as the American longbow, was developed in the 1930s. It resulted from scientific investigation into the best cross-sectional shape for a bow limb. This research was expected to explain why the English longbow's D-section was superior to all other extant designs. Instead, it showed that the best cross-section was a simple rectangle. The AFB was developed by applying these research findings to the English longbow. The result was a more efficient and stable bow. Because of its coincidental resemblance to some native North American bows, the AFB is also known as the "semi-Indian" bow.
The AFB was popularised by Howard Hill and quickly displaced the English longbow as the preferred bow for target shooting. The modern Olympic-style recurve bow is a development of the AFB, usually made mainly of fiberglass rather than wood, with a built-up handle section and recurved limbs."

Q. What is the difference between a longbow and a flatbow? F.A.Q. – No1archery
A. "These terms are often used interchangeably to mean a long, relatively thin, straight bow. However, technically there is a difference, at least in the UK. A longbow has a D-shaped cross-section throughout, while a flatbow has a rectangular cross section to its limbs. Longbows were favoured in England between the 13th and 16th centuries, not because of any inherent technical advantages over flatbows, but because they were economical of wood and therefore cheaper to make in large quantities. A flatbow had to be cut from a wider stave, and carved down to hand width at the handle -- not ideal when bows had to be made by the thousand for military use. Longbows were called longbows because the very high compressive forces that were generated in the narrow part of the `D' meant that they had to be long to stand a reasonable draw length. Flatbows had a better spread of compressive force across the width of the bow, and could be shorter for the same draw.
A bow referred to as an `American longbow' is probably a flatbow, not a longbow at all, as the term is understood in the UK. "

My problem with the Archery Australia 'Longbow' division, is not that we shoot AFB, but that we do not admit it. It needs to be called something else other than 'Longbow', because it is manifestly not. Hence the confusion. Most people who think of 'longbows' would identify with the search engine results, viz: straight english medieval. If we conformed to USA Archery rules it would be called 'Modern Longbow', which might at least make people think. At our club we often get people on our Ozbow programmes turn up wanting to shoot 'longbow.' They get sent over to me, look at what I'm shooting, and their jaw drops. They can't quite see my centre-shot, carbon/fibreglass actionboo reflexed hybrids as longbows! I used to wonder why?
I posted on this forum to try and get some insight into why this has happened within FITA. I apologise profusely for blaming the French. Someone else has just informed me that it was not 'mes amis' across the Channel, but the former colonials across the pond who have subverted FITA. It's the Yanks who got FITA to adopt the AFB as a standard of 'Longbow.' Apparently?
 

steve Morley

New member
Tradtec, part of Lancaster Archery make ILF Longbow limbs.

TradTech Archery

I've shot Fita 3D worlds\europeans and not seen a takedown Longbow as yet, not sure how it would be recieved by the Judgesas most people view the Longbow in the Traditional form as a one piece bow and not takedown.

9.3.1.4 Longbow.
The bow will correspond to the traditional form of a long bow which means that
when strung the string may not touch any other part of the bow but the string nocks.
The bow may be made from any type of material or combination of material. The
shape of the grip and the limbs are not restricted. Center shot is allowed.

Skykite comment about unstrung straigtness of a Bow has been argured already, when unstrung technically it isn't a Bow, just a piece of wood and should only be examined in it's Bow form.
 

Yew Selfbow

Active member
So .... just let me get this clear in my mind ....
if I took a conventional FITA target recurve bow, removed the stabilisation, the sights, pressure button etc ..... turned the limbs backwards (180 degrees) so the recurve of the limbs is facing the wrong way..... string it, and, if the string is only touching the nocks and no other part of the limb .... technically, according to this classification .... I'm shooting a longbow ???
 

SHADOW-MKII

New member
Blakey are these the rules you wish to see applied to Longbow in Australia

RULE : 206 Longbow :

(a) Bow The bow shall be the traditional longbow made from wood, either 'self', 'backed', or 'laminated' with cambered (stacked) belly and horn nocks. With the exception of the 'self' bow, each limb of the bow shall form a single simple curve from the handle to the nock when at full draw. The bow shall be not less than five feet in length for an arrow of less than 27 inches and; not less than five feet six inches in length for a 27' or longer arrow, this being measured along the back between the string nocks. At no point shall the depth of the bow, measured from back to belly, be less than 5/8 (five eighths) of the width of the bow at the same section. The bow may carry no support for the arrow. Bows of bamboo, constructed in conformity with the above, shall be permitted.

(b) String Strings may be of either natural or man-made substance, and may, if desired, embody a 'kisser' at any point as required to facilitate a consistent draw position, but for no other purpose.

(c) Sights and Points of Aim. Sights, as such, are not permitted but one of the following may be used:

(i) Marks on the bow limb.

(ii) Rubber bands of no more than 1/8' in depth and thickness.

(iii) Artificial points of aim on the ground, provided they do not exceed a height from the ground of 6 inches or a diameter of 3 inches nor impede any other archer.

I haven't asked but I presume these are the type of 3 piece Longbows meant in the AA Rules
 

payneib

Supporter
Supporter
Yew Selfbow said:
So .... just let me get this clear in my mind ....
if I took a conventional FITA target recurve bow, removed the stabilisation, the sights, pressure button etc ..... turned the limbs backwards (180 degrees) so the recurve of the limbs is facing the wrong way..... string it, and, if the string is only touching the nocks and no other part of the limb .... technically, according to this classification .... I'm shooting a longbow ???

Yup.

SHADOW-MKII said:
I haven't asked but I presume these are the type of 3 piece Longbows meant in the AA Rules
I can see what you mean, but the slight recurve on the tips of those limbs, makes the string touch the belly of the limbs (all be it for only an inch or two) so shouldn't be allowed by the judges, but yeah, that's the sort of thing.
 

Sky Kite

New member
So .... just let me get this clear in my mind ....
if I took a conventional FITA target recurve bow, removed the stabilisation, the sights, pressure button etc ..... turned the limbs backwards (180 degrees) so the recurve of the limbs is facing the wrong way..... string it, and, if the string is only touching the nocks and no other part of the limb .... technically, according to this classification .... I'm shooting a longbow ???
Or, as I suggested, don't bother turning the limbs around and just use a very high brace (=short string).

Current FITA longbow = part-drawn recurve !
 

Sky Kite

New member
With the exception of the 'self' bow, each limb of the bow shall form a single simple curve from the handle to the nock when at full draw.
What is a 'single simple curve' please ?

How precisely are you going to measure this ? Tillering, uneven woods etc could lead to all sorts of complicated curves.

The Traditional Bowyers Bible - quite rightly - bangs on about bows with 'character' ....

At full draw, some recurved limbs could, I imagine, approximate a 'simple single curve'.

Sorry to keep banging on about it but isn't a longbow, essentially, a long 'straight stave' bow with a 'D' section. If so, unstrung 'straightness' is important, surely ?
 

SHADOW-MKII

New member
The rules in that post are copied directly from the GNAS site, So you would have to ask them. I have no idea :)

This topic has come up several times before on the Australian Forum, and as I understand it, it comes down to the definition of Longbow. AA's and FITA's differ from GNAS's. So I was asking what Blakey's definition is and whether he agrees with GNAS"s
 
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