[English Longbow] Longbow anchor points and spine weights etc

Ruscombe Archer

New member
When I bought my longbow I spent quite a bit of time at the shop choosing the best arrows. The bow is tillered for 36lb at 26" and the ready made arrows I ended up buying were spined at 30/35lb with 60g points. All of the test firing was done with me using the under chin anchor point that I has used on my recurve.

After a while I changed my anchor point to the corner of my mouth. I noticed that my shots were going off further to the left. In fact using my original arrows I have to hold the bow way off to the right of the target to hit it.

Having started making my own arrows I have stuck to 30/35 spines but been experimenting a bit with length. I have noticed a distinct improvement in accuracy with slightly longer shafts - I believe that the extra length has the effect of making the arrow behave as though it has a weaker spine.

Looking at the arrow charts published by the Longbow Shop - arrows spined at 30/35lb would ideally be suited to a 45lb - 50lb bow at a draw length of 26". Whilst a spine of 20/25lb would be best suited to a 36lb bow like mine. Thats quite a difference!

I have just bought some 20/25lb spine shafts and intend to make a set up this week to see how they perform.

Has anyone had a similar experince in relation to changing anchor points etc?

Just wondering

RA
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
This is not a longbow archer's reply as you will know. But, moving the anchor point to the side of the mouth may have shortened your draw. The shorter draw could lower the holding weight and make arrows appear stiffer. Raising the anchor point could lower the arrows in the target and that may have masked the fact that a shorter draw was partly the cause. The move may also have taken the string further to the right, therefore directing the shot further left.
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
Not moved my anchor point, but I do find that arrows need to be lower spined for longbow, although you can subconsciously make some allowance.
I tend to use the same arrows for most of my bows, but I notice a big shift left once I get much below 40# draw weight.
Being under spined doesn't seem as bad as over spined, that's to say I've never seen arrows actually going right, although weaker spined arrows will flex more in flight and be more likely to snap when clattered into the trees.
There are plenty of other variables to play with, a heavier point and bit of extra length will maybe pull 'em back in line.
You can take reduce the spine by scraping/ sanding the central 3/4 of the arrow shaft, but it's prob only worth doing with tatty old arrows for experimental purposes.
Bowyer's Diary: Shooting the Hazel D Bow & the Archer's Paradox
Bowyer's Diary: Spine Tester & Matching Arrow to Bow
The above links to my Bowyers Diary entries on the subject may be of interest
Del
 

Mr R

New member
RA, when I got my arrows for my longbow from Wales Archery a few months ago I was advised that the arrows need to be spined about 10-15lbs lighter than the draw weight you're pulling on the longbow. The bow was marked up as 45#@28 but as I was drawing it back to the corner of my jaw it weight in at 49-50lbs.

The arrows I got for it were 5/16" 35/40# spine. Apparently it's to do with the fact that the longbow is less efficient than a modern recurve drawing the same weight.


I recently purchased a Kassai hungarian horsebow at the same weight and these have to be spined pound for pound (11/32" and 45-50lb), and I was hoping to use the same arrows.
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
Thanks Mr R

The good thing about making your own arrows is that its not too expensive to experiment!

If 20/35 spines work out better with my current bow then my current stock of 30/35 ones will probably be OK for my next bow which will be a 45lb Bickerstaff

RA
 
Oh yes, very similar experiance, I also think it has to do with your perspective of the arrow on target, with under the chin you are looking right down the arrow, where as to the corner of your mouth means it is very biassed to side of your face and therefore one eye.

Regarding the arrow length then yes by making it longer you will be weakening the dynamic spine of the shaft but at the potential cost of smooth arrow flight and distance. Another way of weakening the dynamic spine of your arrow is to put heavier piles onto them, that makes the arrow flex more which will help bring them more to the right, again though you will have to elevate more to get longer distances. Another tip is to hold the string in the pads of your fingers rather than the first crease, that cuts down on the amount of "twang" on the string from a loose.

I find that I need to spine my shafts at about 15 - 20 lbs less than the draw weight of my bow, even more if I am intending to put lightweight 60gn piles on them.

Hope that helps a little.
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
Oh yes, very similar experiance, I also think it has to do with your perspective of the arrow on target, with under the chin you are looking right down the arrow, where as to the corner of your mouth means it is very biassed to side of your face and therefore one eye.

Regarding the arrow length then yes by making it longer you will be weakening the dynamic spine of the shaft but at the potential cost of smooth arrow flight and distance. Another way of weakening the dynamic spine of your arrow is to put heavier piles onto them, that makes the arrow flex more which will help bring them more to the right, again though you will have to elevate more to get longer distances. Another tip is to hold the string in the pads of your fingers rather than the first crease, that cuts down on the amount of "twang" on the string from a loose.

I find that I need to spine my shafts at about 15 - 20 lbs less than the draw weight of my bow, even more if I am intending to put lightweight 60gn piles on them.

Hope that helps a little.
Thanks that's really helpful

Based on the above do you find your bow is within the target circle? If so, is it fairly central or off to the right?

RA
 
I anchor under my chin for longbow, and for when I am using a band for sighting I tend to find that I put the band on the right hand side in the red to get my arrows on target, couldn't tell you where the arrow is pointing when I practice my instinctive shootong though.
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
I finished my first set of 20/25's last night. 28.5" long, 63g points.

Had a quick try out this evening. A marked move to the right with reasonable groupings at 20 and 30m. With the bow lined up with the very edge of the target they were hitting the edge of the red. An improvement from having the bow miles to the right and lined up with nothing!

If I'd had time I would have experimented with some under chin anchor shots to see how much difference this made.

A set of 120g points should be arriving tomorrow and I will fit these to my next set of arrows - it will be interesting to see the results.

RA
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
Arrows with heavier points not available yet so not able to try anything tonight.

As a matter of interest a little earlier, assisted by my daughter, I thought that I would carry our some measurements of the difference in draw length between under chin and side of mouth anchor points.

I found that the corner of the mouth reduces draw by an average of 1" - for some reason I had thought that it would'nt be that much!

RA
 

Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
I am curious as to why to the side of the mouth would reduce the draw compaired to under the chin. I would have thought it would have been the other way around.........though this might vary from person to person depending on facial bone structure.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Raven's_Eye, I think it's more to do with the draw arm elbow.
If you draw to a point high on the face ( eye level for example) the draw elbow is up high too.
If you draw to a point under the jaw, the elbow drops lower to stay in line.
If you mimic the change from eye level to jaw level, concentrating on the elbow rather than the fingers, and watch the elbow in a mirror, the elbow moves down and back... away from where the bow hand would be.
I think, sometimes, the archer with a side of face anchor pulls into alignment nicely.If the same archer draws under the jaw, it is possible that he/she will stop the draw when the string hits the middle of the chin, and not consider drawing further till the draw arm is fully aligned.They effectively stunt their draw length and often leave the draw elbow sticking out of line as a result.Not deliberately, but it can happen so easily when "centre of chin" is taken as gospel.
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
I was suprised as well which is why I repeated the measurements a number if times to double check.

Just to clarify - I dont draw to the centre of the chin but to the side so that the top of my index finger is touching my jaw bone about an inch approx from the very front of my face (I hope that this makes sense!) - this is the anchor point I was taught (rightly or wrongly) on my beginners course

However, looking in a mirror is seems that the corner mouth anchor should be slightly further back. It isnt!

RA
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Ruscombe Archer, it is difficult to imagine exactly what happens when someone else moves their anchor as you describe.
If, instead of just mimicking a draw, or even drawing the bow, you could try using a loop of string. Draw the loop tight as if using a stretch band and try to adjust the length to give the under jaw, or side of mouth anchor.Once that is sorted move to the other anchor point, keeping the loop the same as before and as tight. That way, the draw length will be the same, but where will the actual anchor points turn out to be. You may even "feel" the difference in the arm position between one and the other, and that could show why things aren't turning out as expected.
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
Ruscombe Archer, it is difficult to imagine exactly what happens when someone else moves their anchor as you describe.
If, instead of just mimicking a draw, or even drawing the bow, you could try using a loop of string. Draw the loop tight as if using a stretch band and try to adjust the length to give the under jaw, or side of mouth anchor.Once that is sorted move to the other anchor point, keeping the loop the same as before and as tight. That way, the draw length will be the same, but where will the actual anchor points turn out to be. You may even "feel" the difference in the arm position between one and the other, and that could show why things aren't turning out as expected.
Thanks - never thought of that! Will give it a try, sound like an interesting exercise

RA
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
Just a quick update on this for anyone that might be interested

Up at the crack of dawn and armed with a selection of arrows with different spines, my ELB and my wifes recurve I am not long back from a number of hours at the field and this is what I have found

I am able to achieve better groupings and scores regardless of the arrow spine using the a side of mouth anchor. There is a noticeable deterioration and inconsistency with an under the chin point. This includes some shots taken with my wifes recurve. This seems a bit odd to me but perhaps its down to the fact that the mouth anchor feels more natural to me and in consequence more relaxed? Hmm.......

Weaker spines and heavier points do of course move the POI to the right but there isnt that much in it - certainly with a 20/25 spine, 120g point and 29" arrow (as opposed to 30/35 spine, 63g point and 28") there is no way that the I could line my longbow up with the anything on the target boss. I had set a number of bosses up in a row and found that I was lining it up with the edge of the next boss along. A noticeable move to the right for the POI but not as much as I had thought.

29" 20/25 120g gave the best results though. Im currently using 3" fletchings on all of my arrows - I may experiment with some longer ones for the shorter ranges in the future.

As I thought that the POI would be moving more to the right I thought that I might try a sighting aid and slipped a rubber O ring over the bow. Ive tried this before and it has been of no use whatsoever. Taking my focus from the intended POI seems to reduced my accuracy and consistency to a point where I was spending long periods searching for my arrows in the grass. Once I returned to my usual 'instinctive' method as taught by my coach my arrows started grouping better at 20/30/40 yards.

This may sound as though its a rather frustrating business! Far from it, I find it all quite fascinating and what could be better that seeing in the dawn on a fine summers day at a lovely shooting field with the sounds of the countryside all around?

RA
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
As you say, fascinating; not at all frustrating.
Just a couple of comments, that might be of interest. With the side of mouth anchor, the hand is to the right, compared to under centre of chin. For some archers, it is easier to get the elbow behind the hand( and in line with the shot) that way. Moving to under chin, brings the hand to the left and requires the draw elbow to move round by the same amount.That can be more difficult to manage.
One of the things I notice about aiming is, how easy it can be to take the eyes off the aiming point just as the shot is about to be released.Many archers try to catch a view of the arrow as it leaves, so they look "off target" to follow the arrow. I wonder if the o ring gets you to look at one point when aiming, but you want to look somewhere else when the arrows land. Could that be enough to increase the chances of looking away at the vital time as the arrow starts to fly?
 

Ruscombe Archer

New member
Thanks Geoff.

During my longbow tuition, based on the 'instinctive' method, my coach kept reminding me that the important thing was to remain intently focused on the intended POI and once focused not move my head or remove my gaze from the point or I would miss. She did say that she didnt of course believe that there was any such thing as 'instinctive' shooting - she prefers to think of it as 'automatic' shooting where the brain, processing information from the peripheral vision and position of the body makes the necessary adjustments on a subconscious level. I can see the sense in this. I dread to think what the effect on her blood pressure would be if she know I was messing about with O ring sights and seeking to line the bow up with anything!

I have read archived threads where the above method is 'poo poo'd' but I can only comment from my own experience. The more I try to line things up and look for aim points etc the worse I do. The more I relax and simple focus on where I want to hit then the better I do and its as simple as that.

I have a new one piece wooden recurve arriving soon and am looking forward to some experimentation in relation to arrow spines with this too. I would like to try some field shooting with this and the ELB - sounds like fun.

Its beginning to look as though I have enough to keep me occupied as regards pottering around in the garage with my arrow making equipment for some time.

I have however concluded that the side of mouth anchor and 'instinctive' method are the things for me.

RA
 
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