Beginners, progressing and awards etc

Witchie Poo Cat

New member
Hi Guys

I was just browsing the FITA website and I see that they have a Beginners Awards programme which seems to support novices, like myself, throught the initial stages of training and grants awards accordingly (which I presume helps to keep the novice archer interested and motivated).

My club dont offer this (as far as I know) and just wondered if it was used in the UK or if its more geared towards European or other clubs?

Im so interested and obsessed about archery it has kind of taken me by surprise since I "discovered" it about 2 months ago. Im sure it will take a while to master just the basics but already am wondering how on earth you can progress if no further coaching is available (other than asking members on the shooting line of course).

What do you guys do? Do you hire a personal coach, or go to a club that offers coaching at improvers level? I just hate to think that at the end of 6 weeks thats it and my improvement will be solely in the hands of my fellow members (which doesnt really seem fair on them to be honest! )

Any thoughts?

Witchie Poo Cat
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
WPC If there is coaching available near you, it is worth investigating. Have you tried the GNAS website. Look up clubs near you and some may have a coach on their list.
Reading books can be helpful but it not the best way forward in my opinion.
There is this forum, too. There is much to be learnt from the experts here. They not only offer good advice, but you get all sides of any issues; books are often one sided.
I know that coaching over the ether is not as good as face to face, all other things being equal, but it can be very good at straightening things out in your mind, before too much time is spent on wasteful practice.
I feel there is a place for such "coaching". I know from personal experience that it can work. Part of the technique of using internet coaching is to ask a specific question about a concern or a difficulty. For example, if the archer "THINKS" they have to do a certain part of the shot in a certain manner, they will be working to get the action to match what they "think". What if their idea is wrong in the first place? Perhaps they misunderstood something they picked up.);:reading:
 

Thunk

Well-known member
Ironman
You're going to start me off on my favourite moan...

Trying to find post-beginner coaching is like trying to find a fun night out in Basingstoke. There just isn't any formal system to take someone further. To be honest, I believe that the only reason clubs run a beginners course is to satisfy the GNAS insurance requirements. I simply don't understand why coaches are trained as such - all the ones I know turn up at their club to shoot, and anybody requiring some assistance ends up feeling that they're imposing...

If we really want sport in general to move forward in this country, we have to take on board that organised coaching is for everyone, not just for the elite. GNAS employ a Korean as our National Coach at some unspecified but no doubt attractive salary - his job is to coach the National Team to win medals at world and olympic level. They haven't even thought to get him to write a coaching page for Archery UK - I'd have thought his salary would cover that much.

I think that those who attend a course to train as coaches should then be prepared to put that training into effect - even a course run by the county association would be a start.

I could go on...
 

General Dogs

New member
Oh Dear....:(

I was hoping that at the end of my beginners course I would not be left entirely to fend for myself in terms of onward coaching, but from what you are hinting at Thunk that seems to be the likely case.

Is there a general shortage of coaching at post-beginner level?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thunk said:
Trying to find post-beginner coaching is like trying to find a fun night out in Basingstoke. There just isn't any formal system to take someone further. To be honest, I believe that the only reason clubs run a beginners course is to satisfy the GNAS insurance requirements. I simply don't understand why coaches are trained as such - all the ones I know turn up at their club to shoot, and anybody requiring some assistance ends up feeling that they're imposing...
If we really want sport in general to move forward in this country, we have to take on board that organised coaching is for everyone, not just for the elite. GNAS employ a Korean as our National Coach at some unspecified but no doubt attractive salary - his job is to coach the National Team to win medals at world and olympic level. They haven't even thought to get him to write a coaching page for Archery UK - I'd have thought his salary would cover that much.
I think that those who attend a course to train as coaches should then be prepared to put that training into effect - even a course run by the county association would be a start.
Thunk, you have touched on a subject that is close to my heart, too.
Becoming a coach requires quite a commitment in time and money. Some do so in order to improve their own shooting;but not all thankfully.
Once qualified, there is very little in place, in some areas, to get the coach into the firing line.( no pun intended) With the supposed shortage I half expected to be asked to help once I qualified. That was not the case. I had almost to ask for students to coach. (Perhaps that should be telling me something);:cheerful: It does seem that coaches are trained, but once qualified there is no job for them to go to. One thing to say in defence of the coaches is that they are not always appreciated in their own club. This reflects human nature I'm afraid. Familiarity breeds contempt and all that.
Perhaps there should be some arrangement where coaches are linked to clubs nearby. Another point worth making, sometimes unqualified coaches resent the newly qualified coach. I have a good deal of respect for the non qualified coaches. In some cases the only difference is that they haven't gone through the course. They coach just as well. They are a resource that should be utilised and encouraged by GNAS. When the newly qualified coach feels that resentment it can be difficult to find customers.
I totally agree with you that good coaching should not have to be set aside for the elite. If we start the students on the wrong footing, many will never reach the elite coaches. Quality coaching should start at the beginning-like Marcus does in Australia. Not just to give us a better set of results at some event that few will attend. But because it's the best way in my opinion.
And to give the other side of the coin an airing too, in some cases the archers do not want to be coached. New members join their club and they are not encouraged to seek out a coach. Coaching rarely makes the agenda.
If the individual is determined enough, they will find a coach. But I still agree with you; they shouldn't have to work so hard to find one.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
General Dogs, what happens after the beginners seems to depend on which club you belong to. If there is help where you are, fine. If there isn't, you may have to search something out for yourself. I hope you don't have to struggle as much as some have to.
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Sadly, too many club members see the coach's role as being that of running the beginners courses (No point having a coach AND doing the beginners!) So many coaches who are willing and eager to spend their time guiding and assisting the needy, spend all their time doing the beginners, resulting in a novice underclass who have completed their beginners course and have no coach to take them further.

GeoffRetired writes about the unqualified coaches being just that: "unqualified." Indeed some are a valuable resource, knowledgeable archers and coaches in all but certificate, who probably just havent proceeded down the gnas coach path. GNAS itself makes use of unqualified coaches to coach some of the national teams.:muted: But equally there are unqualified coaches who are unqualified for damn good reasons; who perpetuate out of date methodologies and practices, propagate myths without understanding, have enough knowledge to impress the novice who knows no better, yet little enough knowledge to be of lasting value, and always manage to be there and available when the impressionable are just at the moment of needing help.
"Delivering world class coaching..." given half a chance
 

Witchie Poo Cat

New member
Hi Guys

Im so glad I posted this question. You have all really confirmed what I was thinking.

Those few people in the club who know me know Im not shy about asking questions. The beginners course is great and, maybe because I am a question-asker I do get loads out of it, not just in practise but in hints and tips and already have had loads of pointers about my form just from asking the coach "can you tell me what Im doing wrong this doesnt feel right". Even at this early stage I can see clear differences between the 2 main coaches teaching styles - one of which suits me perfectly and one which just isnt quite what I need.

When the course finishes I will make it clear to the coaches that I will be seeking further tuition so that I can find out exactly what they are able to or prepared to offer. At least that way, if they cannot offer further tuition hopefully they can tell me about a man-who-can (or woman!).

Sometimes I feel Im trying to run before I can walk but I just cant explain what a buzz archery has given me. Its like I have found my niche at long last. I really cannot get enough and feel like a giant sponge just absorbing and processing all this information! I appreciate some people just want to shoot some arrows and theres nothing wrong with that. However, Im one of those people who wants to learn and then continuously improve through practise and coaching.

I will carry on what I do best - asking questions - and hopefully, when the time comes, will know where to look for further coaching.

Thanks for all your replies, as always its fascinating to read everyones views and opinions.

Witchie Poo Cat
 

rohenwto

Member
Witchie Poo Cat said:
Hi Guys

I was just browsing the FITA website and I see that they have a Beginners Awards programme which seems to support novices, like myself, throught the initial stages of training and grants awards accordingly (which I presume helps to keep the novice archer interested and motivated).
GNAS started a version of the FITA award scheme earlier this year :cheerful:

Follow link http://www.gnas.org/coaching/aboutus.cfm scrol to bottom of page and download pdf file for info.
 

tel

Active member
Fonz Awardee
This is one respect in which my club is fairly typical I think.
They do have an improvers scheme to take you from the beginners course to 'intermediate', but until the present time it wasn't compulsory (they are now trying to enforce it so the more experienced aren't wasting diminishing outdoor hours looking for the arrows of those who try the 80 or 100 yd 'for a giggle'!).
As for coaching it is made known on which nights it is available (there will be a duty coach present), but it is up to the archer to request assistance as it is deemed 'not done' to foist unwanted advice on anyone.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I can hardly keep up with this thread it is running so fast! Must be my age):cheerful:
Tel; good point about archers approach the coaches.It's the way I operate, but I sometimes drop hints if I feel the archer is over anxious about "taking up my time."
I know of clubs where the beginners have the option of next level coaching. I would rather do OPTIONAL than compulsory; human nature at work.

Thunk; have you tried asking your club's coaches for coaching? There are some who tend not to offer help as that is considered bad practise.

WPC; your approach is at least one coach's dream.);:cheerful: How I just love people who ask questions. Could be something to do with it being my chosen form of learning too. I believe that your approach, if it could be adopted by a large percentage of archers, would drive the coaching levels upwards. Some might say it shouldn't have to be that way. But,if it gets things done,why not?

ben tarrow;
coaches taking beginners and not having time to help those who want to move on is a valid point. Is it possible to delegate some of their duties with beginners?
Ben,with reference to qualified/unqualified coaches. It wasn't clear, to me, how you had "read" my intentions on that one. I think you were agreeing in part and putting the other side too. Just to clarify, if there was a misunderstanding, I have equal regard for those who coach well, with or without a certificate.Yes there are good, and not so good, in both groups.
I feel that "unqualified" should not be dismissed out of hand.
 

Thunk

Well-known member
Ironman
Originally posted by Geoffretired:
Once qualified, there is very little in place, in some areas, to get the coach into the firing line..... It does seem that coaches are trained, but once qualified there is no job for them to go to.
Isn't this the point Geoff? If these people have spent time and money training to be a coach, you would imagine they would have an interest in getting a return on their investment. Maybe I'm being simplistic, but I would have thought it an obvious step for three or four coaches within an area to get together, organise an improvers course (venue, dates etc) and advertise it in local clubs. Such a course could be run under the auspices of the County Association. People like me don't expect to get something like that for nothing; I would have thought it would be a 'good little earner'.

By the way, you made a point earlier in this thread about unqualified coaches; I'm sure there are many archers out there who are capable of doing good coaching but don't have the piece of paper to prove it. The point about the piece of paper is that it demonstrates the attainment of a certain standard. That assurance is needed by those requiring coaching, who almost by definition don't have the experience to assess the archer's expertise in any other way.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks for the response,Thunk.
Thunk said:
Isn't this the point Geoff? If these people have spent time and money training to be a coach, you would imagine they would have an interest in getting a return on their investment. Maybe I'm being simplistic, but I would have thought it an obvious step for three or four coaches within an area to get together, organise an improvers course (venue, dates etc) and advertise it in local clubs. Such a course could be run under the auspices of the County Association. People like me don't expect to get something like that for nothing; I would have thought it would be a 'good little earner'.
Well said,Thunk.
Return on investment depends on why they invested in the first place. I know precisely why I took the course. After 15 years' coaching with no qualifications, I wanted to find out whether or not my coaching fitted in with what was considered to be "worthy of a certificate". Some, as said earlier, do so to improve their own shooting.Others, because they like the status.( I am not being cynical-it's a fact of life) Most do so to improve their coaching abilities.
Those who want to coach when they qualify, can do as you suggest and get into a team etc. I do that. I agree with you again, that there should be things in place, at county level perhaps, so the new are brought into the system rather than starting from scratch, alone. Where I am, there is only one County coach and until recently no County Coaching Organiser.
The nice little "Earner" is not on the agenda for most coaches. There is no reason why it couldn't happen. It isn't happening, generally, and one main reason, I suppose, is that we work as volunteers. It is a mindset.I couldn't ask my friends for money for showing them how to shoot better. Perhaps the idea that we are with friends, is the reason. If they were customers, perhaps money would be involved
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
ben tarrow said:
But equally there are unqualified coaches who are unqualified for damn good reasons; who perpetuate out of date methodologies and practices, propagate myths without understanding, have enough knowledge to impress the novice who knows no better, yet little enough knowledge to be of lasting value, and always manage to be there and available when the impressionable are just at the moment of needing help.
Funnily enough, that description fits a significant number of 'qualified' coaches too....
I suspect the proportion of good and bad coaches is unchanged, whether they are qualified or not. Human statistics tend to work that way.
 

Witchie Poo Cat

New member
Geoff- I smiled when I read your comment about "one coaches dream", I do tend to consider myself more of a pest than a dream but I guess time will tell :)

Ive always been the type of person who has to understand things, "why am I doing this?" "why is this not working" and so I tend to ask LOTS of questions if Im just not getting it. So far the coach has been only to happy to impart lots of advice and its working, I hear his voice in my ear and I hit gold (ok ok so its only 10 yards or whatever but hey, psychologically, gold is gold right?)

I PM'd one of my fellow members (PaulT) about this topic and he has informed me that last year the coaches tried to organise an improvers course but sadly was dropped due to....wait for it....LACK OF INTEREST!!! Well, I think I will have to do something about that once I join the club and have been shooting a while!

I think some members dont want to be too much trouble and are scared to speak up. On Monday at my class one of the women picked up on something I was saying to the coach about "when I came down to watch last week...". She said to me "you came to watch? why?". I explained that I wanted to get a feel for what it was like, to just have the pleasure of watching some arrows fly and to chat to members and find out what they were about and what archery was to them and ask silly questions (no change there then :p). About 15 minutes later I overheard her asking one of the coaches if it would be ok if she and her friends (also on the course) came down on club night to watch and chat to members. I guess they had wanted to do it but just didnt ask as assumed that mondays were beginners night and perhaps they wouldnt be welcome.

My only concern about all of this in the long term is that some archers may feel that they are being constantly interrupted by beginners asking questions when they are trying to practise for tournaments. I guess the solution here is to get to know the members and hopefully you will find out who is approachable and who is "in training" rather than just shooting arrows for fun so as not to become a pest.

BTW, I totally agree on the idea put forward that coaches from a particular region pool their resources then advertise their courses at local clubs. I for one would be only too happy to pay for further tuition when the time comes.

Thanks again for all the replies, dont you just love a good debate :)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
WPC
More good points made in your last post. A key issue ,I feel, about questions is the "why" aspect. Not , "why should I do as you say?" giving the impression perhaps of lack of trust;but why in the sense that if I know why it is right, I am better able to remember and learn.
I often hear newer archers saying things like, "There is so much to remember."
If it is appropriate, I usually follow that with, "Better to understand it than try to remember it," and give an explanation. The explanation takes longer than a simple statement but invest the time at the beginning and the constant reminding becomes almost unnecessary. An archer who understands, can work more independently so they can get more done. I do not like to see archers doing things because, in their words,"I was told to do it like that." I feel they should know why they do what they do. At least they should be given every opportunity to understand for themselves.
Being constantly interrupted is a problem for both sides. I have interrupted coaches and been interrupted as a coach. We quickly learn to find a compromise, usually. Where that doesn't work, some clubs use an armband idea where the coach is "in office" when the armband is on.:talktothe
 

cestria

Member
Fonz Awardee
Reading through this thread has made me realise how lucky I am to be in the club I am. After our beginners course we (6 of us) were past on to an advanced beginners coach for four weeks which helped bring us on. During the winter indoor season we could approach any of the club's 3 qualified or many more unqualified coaches without feeling you were putting them out. Now we are outdoors the club has a policy of incentive based progression. Starting off with shorter rounds to develop technique, then moving to longer rounds and awarding first time class scores with a club medal, then awarding GNAS class badges when due. Our head coach and record keeper is very particular about his role in the club, we are lucky to have him.
 
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Thunk

Well-known member
Ironman
Cestria, it sounds as though your club is a model that many others would do well to follow.
 

gwildor

New member
beginers/coaching

hi whichie poo cat as stated FITA have started a beginers award sytem as yet at our club has not had the time to set this up as yet (its where your doing your course) but will hopefully have it set up for the winter. further coaching is available on culb nights for all new members and will be offerd to all who wish to join the club and there is always lots of advice from other members and i am sure that most clubs offer the same because its not very nice to join a club and feel left out its not easy to teach someone to shoot in six weeks so the support is there for all but it will not be forced upon the archer as help and advice is not always welcome if you do not like one coaches technique ask another. I personally think archery is the best fun you can have with your clothes on and (im the jokey one )I do try to pass this on when i coach archery is fun so many beginers have packed in courses because they "cant do it" or "there not in the middle" but it takes time and your own eqipment will help (have you got your limbs sorted?)and to put the record straight on the bow sling advice OOOOPs sorry!! cockup on the brain front in my defence im a new coach and still learning the finer points but I will never knowingly give the wrong advice or make it up and coaching techniques are different from person to person and I was taught differently from the other coach and as is our trainee all i am trying to do is to get someone to shoot safely and to enjoy the sport it dosent matter if they all go in the grass or all over the boss it will come in time there are so many things to remember as a beginer and if anyone dosent like my or anyone elses coaching technique tell us we cant improve with out feed back (we wont get upset honnest)if I approch an beginer im only trying to help and advice and its a two way thing im also learning from the beginer things like old medical problems may only be brought to light when we observe and ask but im learning hope this has been of use..
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A new coach, gwildor. Welcome to the field of fun. It is a real privilege being a coach. The more you do ;the more you realise how fortunate you are to have access to a very rewarding experience.Enjoy!
 
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