Between impatience and hesitation.

geoffretired

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I tend to see more beginners and newer archers than MB archers. Often, the archers I see fall into two groups; one where the shots seem rushed, as if they are impatient to finish each shot; the other where they hesitate and seem unsure of when to release.
(This thread is not about blaming the coaches for not teaching beginners properly.It is an observation, and to my way of thinking, both groups are almost to be expected.) Some take too long; others not long enough.
It isn't that surprising, I feel, as some archers get through their "list of things to do", faster than others. Some have more items on their list, some are struggling with an issue they have still to resolve. It also seems that quite a few archers slowly change from one group to the other; sometimes unaware that they have made any change. They slowly fall into a bad habit of taking too much time, or not enough.
Many shots are ruined in that last fraction of a second, when the string is about to pull free from the fingers.( or release aid possibly)
Those who rush, tend to make sudden unnecessary movements that are small but damaging, just as the string is about to move off.
Those who hesitate, seem to have things on their minds which detract from the job in hand; they lose their smoothness, and often collapse.
 

mbaker74

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Personally, I think the main difference in an archer as they get better is shot sequence and timing. The better an archer is for me, the smoother and more repeatable their sequence and timing is.
As a coach, we do always see this spread in people. The ones who delay their shots are often getting far too hung up on aiming and holding steady.
There's only so much you can teach new and young archers, a lot of it is suggestion, getting hetm to try things and allowing them to realise for themselves that actually aiming for 3 minutes each shot does not mean your going to be in the gold, but thinking concentrating on follow through, back tension, rear elbow movement or whatever else works for them, will decrease their group sizes....
Similar to those people ( we have one right now) who goes out and buys top of the line kit after 6 months shooting, expecting an improvement in scores....
 

geoffretired

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Nice post! I agree with all of paragraph 2.
I don't disagree with paragraph one either, I just see timing from a slightly different angle. Or perhaps I need to explore that and see how much overlap there is between us.
My view on timing is that consistent timing sort of follows after the problems have been resolved or form has been refined. To clarify that further, I see archers getting hung up on the aim, or waiting for the clicker to go off. To some extent, the delay is seen as a huge issue and the mind dwells on that rather than getting on with the shot. Every archer has variations in their form. Some of these variations produce differences in the time it takes to finish the shot. For example, a shorter draw to the references requires a longer pull to get through the clicker. That can take longer as that draw is usually fairly slow. Expecting too much of the timing, when the drawing is still variable, can get in the way of learning. The delay in timing can become the problem, when it was the shorter draw at fault. Mistaking the problem for something else isn't helpful.
 

mbaker74

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I think we are saying the same thing Geoff, every archer settles into their own timing, based on the way they draw, their draw length, their process of setting their front shoulder etc etc.... For the inexperienced archer that is practically impossible to replicate every time until they have been through all the issues and learnt, with the help of a coach and experience, how to get over them, so for instance, not over aiming etc...
 

geoffretired

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Thank you once again, I appreciate your reply.
If I could just steer the thread round towards the impatient end of the spread, that might help with the bigger picture.
Longbow archers have more often than not, a very rapid rate of shooting. What is so good about that, in many cases, is the smooth and effortless release. Perhaps I should say uninhibited release. Not forced ; not restrained... natural .
If we could bottle that sensation of freedom at the release...................... ahhhh!
 

mbaker74

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That [possibly comes from the lack of expectancy of hitting the gold due to the inherit "less accuracy" ( I know that's not good English, but I didn't want to say in-accurate, more less repeatability of the longbow) of the equipment, plus a lot of longbows are shooting a lot more poundage than most recurves....
But it is true, a lot of longbows literally draw, touch het anchor point and release in one smooth fluid movement from start to finish. They don't get caught up in anything else....
The extreme end point of the impatient bit is potentially target panic......
 

geoffretired

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Yes, that makes sense. I suppose the extreme of impatience means variations happen too quickly to be spotted by the archer. Hesitation leaves too much time for variations to grow and produce worse results than they otherwise would.
 

Corax67

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That [possibly comes from the lack of expectancy of hitting the gold due to the inherit "less accuracy" ( I know that's not good English, but I didn't want to say in-accurate, more less repeatability of the longbow) of the equipment, plus a lot of longbows are shooting a lot more poundage than most recurves....
But it is true, a lot of longbows literally draw, touch het anchor point and release in one smooth fluid movement from start to finish. They don't get caught up in anything else....
The extreme end point of the impatient bit is potentially target panic......

"lack of expectancy" - I can say with cast iron certainty that amongst the longbow archers in our club, one of which is me, there is absolutely no lack of expectancy.

"less repeatability" - quite the opposite, the longbow archer looking to achieve high scores must become the absolute epitome of repeatability as they don't have all those fun toys like sights, clickers, backstops, etc which recurve & compound rely on. Subsequently they need arms, shoulders, hands, string contact points, arrow point and so on identical every single draw.

Longbow draw secret - when I started shooting longbow I was advised not to hold at full draw for any length of time to avoid over stressing the bow so I don't: once my feet are planted & the arrow is nocked then up comes the bow, back comes the string to contact and the arrow point should be exactly where it needs to be (if I've got it right) then "whoosh" off it goes on its merry journey. It is amazingly organic and seamless plus it has carried over into my Barebow and recurve shooting significantly improving both.



Karl
 

geoffretired

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It is amazingly organic and seamless plus it has carried over into my Barebow and recurve shooting significantly improving both.
Yes, I think the quality of execution with longbows can be something worth trying to take with us when we shoot recurve, sighted or not and even compound.
The longbow archer does, it seems to me, have a fluidity in the execution that can get lost with other bow types. It is neither impatient nor hesitant; but closer to the former I feel.
Why that is, might be worth exploring.
High draw weight can discourage a slow and drawn out style, like that of compounds. The bows may dislike being treated that way too.
"Expectancy" could be an area to look into.... but not in the way that could give offence.
If I shoot 6 dozen at 60y with my compound, I would expect 600 and possibly get more.
If I shoot the same with my recurve, I would expect a lower score. I think others would expect me to get a lower score, too.
If I shoot the same with a longbow, I would not, in all honesty, expect to get a higher score than either of the other two bows.
At the end I might explain that the compound is easier to get high scores with.
The recurve has a sight and metal arrows that match very well with each other.
With the longbow, I would not expect results to be better or even of the same level.
I didn't try less hard because it was a longbow, in fact I had to try a lot harder and for a lower score.
Did my scores with the longbow fall below the others because I expected to shoot lower scores??
Did I not try my best because I knew it was pointless? Not at all, In fact I tried very hard to do my best; but in quite a different way.
It was my style of shooting that was influenced by my expectations. I expected to need to shoot quickly, so I did.
I feel the fluidity comes as a result of the speed of execution. That speed allows a fluidity and at the same time almost prevents worries about aiming too steadily/too long. I think that allows a form of mental relaxation. Not laziness, nor carelessness. Nothing less worthy, just different.
 

Corax67

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I see what you are saying Geoff, achievable scores high to low for a set round are compound, recurve, longbow as would be expected and evidenced in the AGB classification scores - 1st class senior gent on a Long National being 539, 418, 109 respectively - however I go onto our field knowing what my single arrow and 6 arrow averages need to be to achieve this and my expectation level is identical whichever bow I shoot in order to focus on getting those numbers.

Whilst the compound is undoubtedly easier to get higher scores with it is also much harder to get the requisite scores for a given classification level - a two-edged sword.

Speed is the interesting factor for me, I shoot a longbow quickly, we all do at club (and whine about compounders taking too long) because the bow lends itself so easily to this style of shooting with no noticeable negative effect. If the weather isn't silly then I can shoot Bowman scores all day long, week in and week out on a not particularly heavy bow - 50# @ 28".

I now find though that shooting 'rapidly' on recurve has given me a much smoother shot routine with vastly improved scores to my previous "hold, hold, hold, release" as coached initially. One of our coaches actually said to a beginner "don't watch Karl shoot" which is cool because what I do works for me even though it makes a coach cringe.

Having shot the compound last week for the first time I was noticeably quicker than our regular compounder and still left a few recurves standing too but it felt really natural to me that way as I've never been coached the "proper compound shot technique" only how to load, draw and fire safely.

Sometimes maybe it's better not know but instead to just do ;)




Karl
 

geoffretired

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Hi Karl, thanks for that.
and my expectation level is identical whichever bow I shoot in order to focus on getting those numbers.
I think this needs to be clarified, as I can see two versions in my head.
I guess you are saying your expectation level with the three bows, is the same. You expect the relevant Bowman( or other classification) scores with each type. Not the other version which would be to expect the same score with all three bows.
Your post seems to match a few of the ideas I have put forward. The longbow archer does have little time to get bogged down with the aiming; that in its turn brings a fluidity to the execution. I mentioned bottling that fluidity and selling it to recurvers and compounders. It seems you have already done that and used the longbow speed to improve your recurve shooting. It has been passed on to your compound too.
The point about this thread is that impatience is damaging and so is hesitation. They are the two ends/boundaries of a useful time allowance to be given to any shots.
It is easy enough for recurvers and compounders to take too long; you have found that out already. It seems to creep into their/our form. It can creep into our form and damage that fluidity that we see as important. It is not how long that time is, measured in seconds; but how long it is in its effect on fluidity and mental well being.
For some archers who shoot slowly, their time is well spent settling themselves, as opposed to unsettling themselves. A compounder who rushes, can be missing some of the ingredients that give that bow its edge. Slower archers who know what to do, are not waiting with nothing to do in that end section. They are working towards a better result. Those who are not getting better results are delaying for no good reason; perhaps they are hesitant.
 

mbaker74

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"lack of expectancy" - I can say with cast iron certainty that amongst the longbow archers in our club, one of which is me, there is absolutely no lack of expectancy.
you have misquoted me, I said less expectancy of hitting the gold. You cant tell me that all of your longbow archers walk up to the line at 60 yds and expect to put 6 arrows in the gold. Im not saying longbow archers don't try to, but you surely don't expect to?

"less repeatability" - quite the opposite, the longbow archer looking to achieve high scores must become the absolute epitome of repeatability as they don't have all those fun toys like sights, clickers, backstops, etc which recurve & compound rely on. Subsequently they need arms, shoulders, hands, string contact points, arrow point and so on identical every single draw..
The repeatability I was talking about is that of the bow itself. If the archer is the epitome of repeatability, and the bow / arrow combo matches that repeatability, then there should be no reason longbows don't score the same levels as recurves.. After all, if I had a totally repeatable style I would not need a clicker, my repeatable draw and anchor would see me draw the exact same amount each time.

I was not trying to cause offence with my comments, longbow is by virtue of the materials used, design etc inherently less accurate than recurve and compound, as evidenced by the scores at different classifications, which releases some of perceived pressure to aim and draw just so etc etc which can cause delays.
 

geoffretired

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I was not trying to cause offence with my comments,
I had to struggle to keep myself from saying something, I was pretty sure that I had read your post as you intended.
I find it is difficult to get the wording right on this aspect. Say too little and it can be taken two ways, try to explain clearly and it takes so long it sounds contrived. Your post is spot on.( Glad I kept quiet)
I think expectancy has a lot to do with this thread. The greater the potential for the equipment to put arrows in the same hole, means the archer, to be competitive must try very hard to match that potential and in so doing, lose some of the freedom of movement. It's like the bow dictates the timing and the stress level. I know that it shouldn't be like that, but we are built that way... most of us anyway.
By avoiding impatience and hesitation, I think we can stay in a comfortable zone.
Impatience and hesitation, like a dead loose, are fairly easy to spot and that can help with getting back on track.
 

Zombie_Feynman

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I think expectancy has a lot to do with this thread. The greater the potential for the equipment to put arrows in the same hole, means the archer, to be competitive must try very hard to match that potential and in so doing, lose some of the freedom of movement. It's like the bow dictates the timing and the stress level. I know that it shouldn't be like that, but we are built that way... most of us anyway.
I think there is a shift in the way we approach shooting a longbow, a recurve or a compound. In longbow we are trying to execute a good shot, and in compound we are trying to avoid making mistakes and that will tend to slow things down. Recurve is somewhere in the middle.

A very good word (that you can find in many archery manuals) to describe that balance between being too fast or too slow is rhythm. A good shoot has good rhythm, it will look as if you could put some music to go with it.
 

geoffretired

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Cheers for that. I like the idea of putting music to the shot process.
Hesitation would have a section at the end that drags on; erratic vibrato like the musician was sitting on a working washing machine.
Longbow might be a short riff.Energetic, but brief.
I also think that longbow is a bit like high jump with a very short run up. Recurve equates better with long jump; time to prepare for a strong finish.
Compound might be triple jump, time to prepare but lots to get right if things are to turn out well.
Another thing I notice with longbow, the mime of the shot takes about the same time as a real one.
Recurve archers can mime their shots well enough but often take less time in the mime than in reality.
 

Corax67

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you have misquoted me, I said less expectancy of hitting the gold. You cant tell me that all of your longbow archers walk up to the line at 60 yds and expect to put 6 arrows in the gold. Im not saying longbow archers don't try to, but you surely don't expect to?



The repeatability I was talking about is that of the bow itself. If the archer is the epitome of repeatability, and the bow / arrow combo matches that repeatability, then there should be no reason longbows don't score the same levels as recurves.. After all, if I had a totally repeatable style I would not need a clicker, my repeatable draw and anchor would see me draw the exact same amount each time.

I was not trying to cause offence with my comments, longbow is by virtue of the materials used, design etc inherently less accurate than recurve and compound, as evidenced by the scores at different classifications, which releases some of perceived pressure to aim and draw just so etc etc which can cause delays.

Absolutely no offence taken & sorry for the misquote regarding golds.

However we have archers who do indeed approach the line with a longbow on a 60 yard target expecting to put 6 in the gold, the same archers who have spent countless hours creating a set of arrows with weight and spine deviation tolerances measured in fractions of a percentage point - one of our archers has designed a 3D printed spine tester fitted with a laser sighting device to undertake this task and who shoot a set of 6 in strict numerical order knowing precisely how each will perform.


With regards to accuracy levels of differing bow styles may I suggest an experiment next time you are having a mixed shoot: pop a target on the line at 60yds with three archers - a longbow, a recurve without a sight and a compound without a sight then shoot six arrows.

I guarantee the expectation of 6 golds & overall score will raise a smile :)



Karl
 

Corax67

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Sorry Geoff I believe I have derailed the post.


He who hesitates is lost ............

Fools rush in ............


Hesitation or over expectancy will most definitely impact on an archers shot cycle and it makes sense that archers who are early on in the sport are most likely to exhibit these traits. I don't however think that bow style is a significant factor, rather that recurve is the prevalent bow in clubs as it is the primary teaching bow so it shows is more there.

TP is very likely an extreme manifestation of one of these ends of the spectrum.




Karl
 

geoffretired

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Hi Karl, I think the bow style is relevant, The way longbow shooters perform ,generally, is quicker and almost always with little or no pause for aiming. Bow types where aiming is fairly lengthy in comparison, can allow hesitation as the archers have time for such distractions to creep in.

a longbow, a recurve without a sight and a compound without a sight then shoot six arrows.
I think any longbow archer who is used to shooting 60y without a sight, would struggle to beat any recurve barebow archer who is used to shooting 60y, and the compounder who has shot 60y several times without sight, would probably win.
 

Corax67

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Think I need to go spend some time studying other archers form :)

My observations have been made solely on my own limited experience thus far in archery - I flourished rapidly during & immediately after my beginners recurve training, hit a hideous wall of self doubt & frustration & form collapse, embraced longbow through necessity and have reaped the benefits of stick & string shooting back into recurve, Barebow and compound. I now shoot a short cycle and it works for me.

It makes sense that the longer you have to spend trying to get the perfect sight picture the longer you have to muck things up so the mechanical advantage of compound & recurve over longbow would lend itself to allowing negative traits to nurture.


So so much to learn, to study, to understand and to interpret and so many variables to mix into the pot - must try not to be so defensive of my number one love, longbow :)



Karl
 

geoffretired

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Hi Karl,
My observations are based on my limited experience in archery thus far, plus, the experiences of others on this forum. I see your good self in the examples I have used in this thread. Recurve and stress; and longbow with fun, and overspill into better recurve archery after the help from longbow.
I think defensive is a bit a bit of a drawback. To my way of thinking there are more similarities to be shared and used across the styles. I can see differences, as can we all, but they are not barriers to sharing, they are suppport; they highlight the essence of shooting.
I think there is so much to learn; still to learn, for all of us, from each other. BUT the act of shooting can be clouded by some of the learning, as it can take up so much time when reading the text versions. Actual shooting , is not so wordy in itself. I find words get used more often when trying to solve problems. Saying what is right or sound is much simpler.
You say you flourished rapidly after the beginners' course. It was similar for me. BUT what could we have picked up in such a short time that allowed us to shoot that well? Well, not masses of information that's for sure. My guess is we were lucky enough to pick up a few ingredients. The ones that really matter.
My view is, that getting on so well so easily is a double edged sword. We aren't always aware of what it is that we know; and we don't always realise at the time what is important in what we have started to use. Bad habits creep in because we are totally unaware there are such things.
This thread is partly about bad habits but also about the loss of a vital good one. The effortless execution, so well demonstrated to us by longbow archery.
Perhaps " effortless" is not the best word, but it seems to fit when we watch longbow archers with their freedom of movement and lack of inhibitions.
 
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