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Discuss A Different Approach to Bareshaft tuning at the Methodology, Tuning, Coaching etc. within Archery Interchange UK Forums; I have been thinking (bad habit I know) about what we are trying to do ...
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    In the Red I've taken part in an AIUK Ironman Shoot. BowSurfer's Avatar
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    Red face A Different Approach to Bareshaft tuning

    I have been thinking (bad habit I know) about what we are trying to do when bare shaft tunning and wondering whether we have the methodology right.
    As I understand it whatwe want from tuning (as a middling level archer) is to have a setup which is maximally forgiving of a poor shot.
    In this case, would it not be better to shoot say 4 or 5 bareshafts, amd just one or two fletched shafts. Tuning is then adjusted to minimise the group size of the bare shafts - and especially to bring outliers back into the group. The fletched shafts are there just to give a clue as to which way to make adjustments.
    By shooting more bareshafts per end the cances of getting some poorer shots among them are increased and the bow's tolerance to those poorer shots is whatwe are trying to reduce.
    I must admit I haven't tried this yet, but would be interested in comments on the suggestion.






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    It's an X buzz lite beer's Avatar
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    Initially when setting up, I believe it is appropriate and not uncommon to shoot all your arrows in bare shaft form and select only the shafts that group together for tuning purposes, from these arrows fletch at least three then proceed with your tuning. Both physically and dynamically a bare shaft is a different arrow than a fletched arrow, Fletchings slow an arrow down and make them heavier and alter apparent stiffness, a bare shaft tune only gets you near to a truly forgiving set up . For the most optimal set up you must follow a regimented micro adjustment process of all other variables to get best groups at all distances.

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    Moving on from the previous post.

    Some archers, (either sponsored or with spare cash), get a couple of dozen arrows (sometimes more!), shoot them all bare shaft, and select only the arrows from these which group as the set to tune and use in competition.

    The others are relagated to training arrows (bare bossing etc). Although it is worth checking these arrows by rotating nocks etc. as there may be some variation due to the components rather than the shafts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugue View Post
    Moving on from the previous post.

    Some archers, (either sponsored or with spare cash), get a couple of dozen arrows (sometimes more!), shoot them all bare shaft, and select only the arrows from these which group as the set to tune and use in competition.

    The others are relagated to training arrows (bare bossing etc). Although it is worth checking these arrows by rotating nocks etc. as there may be some variation due to the components rather than the shafts.
    Rotating nocks is well worth trying, shoot at 40 yds. Mark line on arrow and knocks to set starting position. Rotate knocks (very slightly) of arrows which do not group. If arrows come closer to group move a bit more, if wider move knock the other way.
    Rotating knocks works due to the inconsistency of the carbon thickness on arrows. Aluminum can be consistently be manufactured to very fine tolerances. Unfortunately no one has yet devised a way of wrapping on carbon to the same accuracy. If you look at an arrow end through a micro scope the carbon wall will vary in thickness.
    I think therefore I miss

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    BowSurfer, I think I can see what you are getting at. Tuning out the bow's intolerance with bare shafts seems like a good idea as they tend to spread wider than fletched ones.I think though that there are two things going on here.
    Using bare shafts really indicates the whether or not the nocking point is close to ideal and how well the spine matches the speed of the bow.Once you have decided where the nocking point is going to be and once you have matched the arrows to the bow( or even adjusted the speed of the bow to the arrows)then the fine tuning starts.If you did the fine tuning in relation to the bare shafts, I'm not sure that you would get the benefits when you start shooting fletched arrows. I can see the reasoning, I think. If the tweaking brings the spaced out bare shafts into a nice group it should do something good for the fletched ones.
    That may be correct, but the bare shafts are slightly stiffer than the fletched version, (or is it the other way round) and perhaps that will undo the benefits of some of the tweaking.
    Perhaps we should use more bare shafts to accentuate our mistakes.That way we may learn what causes some of the misses and work at reducing the errors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffretired View Post
    BowSurfer, I think I can see what you are getting at. Tuning out the bow's intolerance with bare shafts seems like a good idea as they tend to spread wider than fletched ones.I think though that there are two things going on here.
    Using bare shafts really indicates the whether or not the nocking point is close to ideal and how well the spine matches the speed of the bow.Once you have decided where the nocking point is going to be and once you have matched the arrows to the bow( or even adjusted the speed of the bow to the arrows)then the fine tuning starts.If you did the fine tuning in relation to the bare shafts, I'm not sure that you would get the benefits when you start shooting fletched arrows. I can see the reasoning, I think. If the tweaking brings the spaced out bare shafts into a nice group it should do something good for the fletched ones.
    That may be correct, but the bare shafts are slightly stiffer than the fletched version, (or is it the other way round) and perhaps that will undo the benefits of some of the tweaking.
    Perhaps we should use more bare shafts to accentuate our mistakes.That way we may learn what causes some of the misses and work at reducing the errors.
    I agree that there will still be need for fine tuning. However I am not sure that the initial bare shaft tuning is just related to nocking point adjustment. The texts usually advocate setting button pressure using bare shafts at 15-20yds, and it is this phase of tuning that I was thinking of. The fine tuning is then continued at greater distances, and is done by group sizes more than a reliance on the position of the bare shaft. After that micro tuning is good if you can get small enough groups at 60-70yds or more.

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    If you have 30+ arrows to start with then bare shaft selection is the way to go, but I have only 12 so I start with 8 fletched and 4 bare to tune.

    This give a real fletched group and a real unfletched group to show tune for nock height and spine match.

    Hopefully any rogues will show up.

    Also it is worth matching weights of components and complete arrows before you start.

    Dave
    Eat, drink, shoot, enjoy.

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    You should always check for rogue arrows when you get a new set.

    I once got a set of ACC's, made up from a matched Easton box. When I shot them at the club one arrow consistantly placed about 2 feet away from the others at 20 yards.

    Rotating and replacing the nock only moved the arrow in a circle around the others, always 2 feet out of the group.

    I replaced all components without effect. So that one went straight in the bin.

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    I see your reasoning but I agree with geoffretired - there's little point in group-tuning bareshafts, you're better to group tune fletched shafts at the maximum distance you can group at.
    Never let the truth get in the way of a good story - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by buzz lite beer View Post
    Initially when setting up, I believe it is appropriate and not uncommon to shoot all your arrows in bare shaft form and select only the shafts that group together for tuning purposes, from these arrows fletch at least three then proceed with your tuning.
    ...<snip>...
    Certainly shaft selection, or at least elimination of rogues, is important but that is not really what I was suggesting. I was thinking of the basic bareshaft bow tuning process, normally done with for example, 4 fletched and 2 unfletched shafts at 15-20 yds. I simply started from the premise that if you are trying to make the bow tolerant of the poor loose, then making adjustments based on a really good loose is not going to give the optimal setup.

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    Hi BowSurfer,
    From your recent posts on this thread,I think I was more or less on the same track as you. Tweak the button to tune out/reduce the errors with the bare shafts as they are easier to see etc.
    Can I just check, that first you set the nocking point with bare shafts and fletched? Then you found the best settings to get left/right impacts close to each other so the spine and the speed of the bow are matched?
    After those two are sorted you suggest using more bare shafts than fletched to try to reduce the impact of archer's poor form/looses?
    I'm trying to imagine the same archer doing this exercise both ways on two separate occasions.If the settings at the end of each session were different;what does the archer do next?
    1) use the bare shaft set up and shoot fletched arrows to see if they are improved, too?
    2) use the fletched settings to see if that is better or worse than method 1)?
    3) repeat several times to see if it was a real improvement or just the archer having a good day?

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    For indoor use, i personally don't see the point in serious micro adjustment bow tuning.

    Everyone has their own ideas on how a bow should be tuned... I used to have my set up o centre shot, then i changed it so the arrow pointed slightly into the bow, and now it points slighty away from it... and i found that it works better, for me, in the last option... Tuning is all about personal prefrence, just the same as equipment
    /(bb|[^b]{2})/

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    Quote Originally Posted by BowSurfer View Post
    I simply started from the premise that if you are trying to make the bow tolerant of the poor loose, then making adjustments based on a really good loose is not going to give the optimal setup.
    That is what I believe tuning is all about, adjusting the equipment to work best for the archer. I must admit when I do a full no holds barred tune on my gear the quality of the bare shaft group is very important and don't accept that bare shaft groups should be unduly larger than that of the fletched arrows, at any of the distances you shoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffretired View Post
    Hi BowSurfer,
    From your recent posts on this thread,I think I was more or less on the same track as you. Tweak the button to tune out/reduce the errors with the bare shafts as they are easier to see etc.
    Can I just check, that first you set the nocking point with bare shafts and fletched? Then you found the best settings to get left/right impacts close to each other so the spine and the speed of the bow are matched?
    After those two are sorted you suggest using more bare shafts than fletched to try to reduce the impact of archer's poor form/looses?
    I'm trying to imagine the same archer doing this exercise both ways on two separate occasions.If the settings at the end of each session were different;what does the archer do next?
    1) use the bare shaft set up and shoot fletched arrows to see if they are improved, too?
    2) use the fletched settings to see if that is better or worse than method 1)?
    3) repeat several times to see if it was a real improvement or just the archer having a good day?
    I was thinking more that the process of setting the nocking point, and then setting button pressure (important to do it in that order) should be done with more bare shafts rather than with the majority being fletched shafts, and that the selection criteria should be based on the bare shaft group size rather than just the impact position of the bare shafts with respect to the fletched shafts. The respective positions of bare and fletched indicate which way to make the adjustment, but the final position should be based on the bare shaft group size rather than just the relative impact position. This process could probably be done in a single session.
    Following that, you then proceed to 'fine tuning' by tuning for groups with fletched shafts at ever increasing distances - depending on your ability to produce recognisable groups at each distance, adjusting button pressure in about 1/4 turn increments.
    Finally, if you are good enough you go to 'micro-tuning', adjusting for groups at long distances with about 1/8 turn increments of the button. These stages are of course just conventional procedures as in Matthews, and the Easton Tuning Guide. My suggestions/thoughts really just related to the first basic steps, beyond which I suspect many archers do not go.

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    BowSurfer, got you this time!
    So, what you are saying is that when we start the setting up for nocking point use the group size of the bare shafts(several) to determine when to stop moving the nocking point. Then repeat but for the centreshot and button pressure and again go by bare shaft group size not position.
    In a way then, you are doing the group size tuning at the start, not at a later stage and using the bare shafts as indicators not the fletched shafts. Almost dispensing with the first stage which is to do with arrow flight.
    I would wonder about the results here if, for example, the bare shafts grouped well as the fletched ones all spread out. Could that happen?


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