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Discuss Draw length and getting it right? at the Methodology, Tuning, Coaching etc. within Archery Interchange UK Forums; Originally Posted by joetapley The "Simple Art of Winning" along with the Fita coaching manuals ...
  1. #16
    It's an X I've taken part in an AIUK American Shoot.I've taken part in an AIUK Ironman Shoot. hooktonboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joetapley View Post
    The "Simple Art of Winning" along with the Fita coaching manuals and Frangillis' "The Heretic Archer" are the three "must read" archery books - IMHO anyway.
    In my IMHO too.... for what it's worth, especially McKinney..

    Geoff I know this is probably going for the absolutely obvious but is a problem I've struggled with for years and it's linked to a neck problem, probably limited mobility in the cervical spine.... As you come close to "full draw" there can be a very slight tendency to push the neck forward without tipping forward - effectively shortens the draw and then you end up further down the side of the face to get the line.

    I know a couple of others of us with the same stiff (weak?) neck problem. You have to watch closely for it because it is only the slightest push forward.

    Other option (spectacle wearers beware...) - too much head rotation...you mentioned this I think - head too square...

    Pain in the neck, mate!
    JFDI


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    Quote Originally Posted by hooktonboy View Post
    In my IMHO too.... for what it's worth, especially McKinney..

    Geoff I know this is probably going for the absolutely obvious but is a problem I've struggled with for years and it's linked to a neck problem, probably limited mobility in the cervical spine.... As you come close to "full draw" there can be a very slight tendency to push the neck forward without tipping forward - effectively shortens the draw and then you end up further down the side of the face to get the line.

    I know a couple of others of us with the same stiff (weak?) neck problem. You have to watch closely for it because it is only the slightest push forward.

    Other option (spectacle wearers beware...) - too much head rotation...you mentioned this I think - head too square...

    Pain in the neck, mate!
    funny you should say this.

    A month or so ago I found I had been doing exactly the same thing ever since I started. I now sit my neck back down (odd sounding I know) which hasn't brought my draw length back, but has actually changed the muscles engaged in my back slightly, making it much easier to draw!
    No idea quite what has gone on there, but by not pushing my neck forward it's a lot easier, and the neck stiffness after shooting is gone
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    It's an X I've taken part in an AIUK American Shoot.I've taken part in an AIUK Ironman Shoot. hooktonboy's Avatar
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    Not so odd, Efbe - that slight push moves nearly all the tension up the neck-spine. You can end up using a lot of neck muscle to hold position.Can give you wicked headaches too ;-)

    Edit, although headaches not as wicked as too much Jagermeister... so I'm told
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    JFDI

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    Thanks Hooktonboy,
    I know that I am having trouble with one particular archer at the moment. But what is also bothering me is that it could easily happen again if I am not able to sort out how to go about establishing a draw length for anyone.
    On a beginners' course, it seems that most start off too short through nervousness etc. But in a few dozen shots they are getting into a sound posture and the draw length settles. Every now and again, there is someone who struggles to get into a good posture and that is when I feel inadequate.
    I just watched Performance Archery on this topic and ASW says to get the string on the nose and front of the jaw( even if it isn't central) and then get the draw elbow in line with the two hands.
    It just seems that with some archers the two aren't so easy for me to help them establish these at the same time.

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    Wow! An interesting thread.

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    In the Red ThomVis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffalump View Post
    I think I have this problem but I decided that its because my arms are long. With the bow arm straight and the string on my chin/nose and head facing the target there is no way I can have my bow hand, string hand and string elbow in a straight line. I'd have to pull a couple of inches more up the side of the jaw to do that. Or turn my head away from the target to allow the string arm to rotate away while keeping the chin anchor.

    Hmmm, might try that tomorrow.
    Or, after turning your head towards the target, lift your nose up a centimeter or so. This brings the nose-string point back and gives your hand more space to anchor (assuming recurve here) under the jawline. That and good use of back muscles and you should be able to get in line. Coming from a fellow knuckle dragger.
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    On my coach training course I remember being shown how a string may contact different faces in different places, and how a head turn or adjustment can bring good contacts at the front of the face.
    My problem is with archers whose posture seems right, but only when the string is well back from the front of their face.
    Don't forget that as the draw side scapula can move, the draw elbow can rotate horizontally around with the pivot point being the draw hand fingers.
    I feel Joe has reminded me of something relevant, here. Bring the elbow round and into line without moving the reference points back from the front of the face. It seems I forgot to demonstrate that with the archer in mind here.
    A session tonight should resolve this matter.

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    In the Gold heroblob's Avatar
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    I think that stems from someone not using correct back tension to execute the shot, but attempting to use the biceps to draw the string straight back through the line. As they reach anchor how much pile have they got under the clicker. Should only be a couple of mm.
    Also ensure good front scapular position set down and forward. If they are squeezing the front scapular back in towards the spine it leaves nowhere for the rear scapular to go. This causes a feeling of the rear scapular from locking out and encourages the biceps to take over attempting to pull through the line and so down the side of the face.

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    Hi Heroblob,
    I gave the wrong impression I'm afraid. I am talking about archers who are close to beginner level and establishing their draw length for the first time. I think there is some truth in the archer trying to draw a straight line, so that can be looked at, too.
    Thanks again.

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    True Geoff, But teaching correct body position and correct muscle usage right from the go must be an advantage.

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    Hi Heroblob, Yes indeed I am trying to get this right for the new archer. I realise that something is wrong and haven't yet got my head round the "BIG" picture of draw length. Once I have that, I should make fewer mistakes in my coaching.
    I have focused on draw forearm alignment too much and the string references have gone out of place.

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    Geoff,
    Just to confirm, are you talking about draw length for the sake of arrow length and clicker position or alignment of the rear elbow and string contact on face.

    I wouldn't consider the later to be anything to do with draw length but posture and alignment.

    If its regarding setting the clicker position correctly then I think that should be done in a different way.

    The clicker can be used as a timing device for correct shot timing. Once good posture and alignment has become consistent the clicker can be moved to adjust the shot time. Start with it too close, draw strong and to good posture, if the arrow comes through the clicker early move it a mm or two to increase the draw length. Draw again strong and confident. If the shot takes too long reduce the clicker position. Too many people pull through the clicker early and then on the next shot worry about it and become tentative. this causes the shot to slow down and this leads to poor execution. Every shot should be strong and confident, drawn to good alignment and the timing of the shot adjusted by fine tuning the clicker position.

    Look out for another clicker thread.

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    Hi Heroblob, It is draw length for alignment of rear elbow and string contact with face. He managed to get the tip of the nose in contact with the string tonight, but back off the front of the chin by nearly 1". Alignment was good though.
    As for clicker, it seems we think alike on that aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffalump View Post
    I think I have this problem but I decided that its because my arms are long.
    This is a common, accepted "truism" that has only the slightest basis in reality. For the vast majority of archers the forearm and the humerus are PROPORTIONAL, so that it does not interfere with the getting to alignment.
    What is the problem usually is a failure of mobilization of some part of the draw side upper back. As the scapula and middle and lower trapezius move to the spine in the presence of a low shoulder the forearm migrates, pivots, into an alignment with the arrow. It is up to the archer to place the head such that the string reaches the center of the nose (which means the archer must utilize the physical design features of the cervical vertebrae by dipping the chin slightly as he rotates to the target like a predator) and the string slides SLIGHTLY to the side of the jaw making a firm contact with the jaw and a subtle but detectable contact with the nose, and the fist knuckle arising to contact the bony jawline.
    The short version? You need to make sure that your scapula moves to the spine while staying low, and move the neck/head to the right position so that when the bow is drawn to the furthest point as defined by your bony structure including your arm<G>, it gently makes those other contacts of concern in this thread.
    This takes practice, and I have yet to find anyone under the age of about 30 who cannot do it. Geezers like me have to work very hard to learn to mobilize those muscles but most can do it to some degree. 50% better alignment is well, better than nothing!
    Again, I would bet a margarita you could get to alignment AND have centre-of-nose/side of jaw string contact if you can move the scapula much more towards the spine during the shot process.
    An atypical archery coach

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooktonboy View Post
    ...Geoff I know this is probably going for the absolutely obvious but is a problem I've struggled with for years and it's linked to a neck problem, probably limited mobility in the cervical spine....
    Maybe this will be informative?

    Also, the pivot point mentioned earlier in the thread is not the fingers as I understand it - in my world the pivot point is the shoulder assembly just above LAN2 - the fingers are at the end of the lever, and the final movements of the fingers are driven wonderfully by the power of leverage about the shoulder powered by the traps, the rhomboids, and the will of the archer.
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    An atypical archery coach

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