Draw length and getting it right?

geoffretired

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Supporter
I remember the days when archers drew to the centre of the nose and centre of the chin; and that was their draw length!!
It doesn't work for everyone, though; they need to discover their own, not copy some "standard" which to me seems a flawed one.
In the last few years I have run several beginners' groups and taken them on to the next step, where they shoot their gear and develop a form that is based on their physical make up.
What is starting to concern me is the number of archers who end up drawing down the side of their nose and side of the jaw.Or, if not to the side of the nose, they push the string against the nose till it is really squashed up.
My worry is that I am missing something. I watch them draw and encourage them to get the draw elbow in line. I do this with a very light bow or an elastic string on their own bow, so there is no struggling at full draw.
Is there a situation where the archer can appear to need to draw so far back on the face to get the draw elbow in line? Is that situation the result of my missing some other element in the draw length make up?
I am wondering if it is a very arched back or something like that which is making matters worse than it needs to be.
 

sreynolds

New member
Maybe check head positioning. String on the side of the nose may indicate that the head isn't turning far enough toward the shoulder. This can be related to tipping the head back -- the structure of the neck vertebrae is such that tipping back reduces the maximum turning angle, tipping forward increases it.

Take a look at the nose and chin. A prominent nose and/or receding chin can lead to tilting the head back or a squashed nose when the archer attempts the standard string-on-face positioning. (I wonder if perhaps asian archers have some small biomechanical advantage based on their faces being relatively flat in comparison to ours.)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi, Thanks for that.
I think the head may be the problem. The string is down the aiming eye side of the nose, so I guess the head is turned too far round.
The archer in question at the moment has a very flat looking posture, as if made from cardboard, so string line is very close to to the spine, with the back arched more than I think is good.
What do you think?
 

lbp121

Member
The old way was certainly centre of nose and chin. I still teach nose but will gladly allow side of chin if it helps get the drawing arm in line instead of elbow out.
I would encourage 2 points of face reference, wherever they are. My reason for this it if you use , say nose and chin, the head angle is set constant. This in turn means eye height doesn't vary and makes sense of using a sight. If the head angle varies such as leaning back or nodding forward, the eye position varies a huge amount and makes sighting pointless.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Cheers lbp. yes two points can be better than one. The problems start when the archer has the string where we are aiming for, but the elbow is still out of line. I tend towards asking for the drawing elbow to be moved further round, which is giving a longer draw length and the string moves back. Would a head that faces the target too square on and arched back bringing the shoulders back from the arrow line, be to blame?
 

lbp121

Member
Hard to imaging head rotation causing a problem. Lack of rotation does and in my case it was a matter of more nose and less target view each year! I'd guess the natural head position is to stand square as in a star jump. arms out stretched leading to and pointing away from target and then to fold drawing arm across chest. Then if head is turned, owl like, only the head and neck should twist until the rotate meets its natural stop.
Arching the back usually brings in the issue of string contact on release.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
The head rotation may not be the treason, but it might be part of it. I am thinking aloud here, but as the head rotates the aiming eye and the string line moves across towards the bow shoulder , could that not lead to the string hand being so far left( RH) that the elbow gets left sticking out in relation to that hand?
 

heroblob

New member
Very interesting thread.
How about this.

If you think about that either side of the rotation Both will occur.
Think about the arrow and forearm as two link witch bend around the fingers. If the head isn't rotated enough the alignment could be an angle with the apex being away from the face. As the head rotates left the alignment improves to a perfect position. if you continue the head rotation the alignment starts to move inside the line. Where this point of perfect alignment occurs will be governed by many other things like front shoulder position, good scapular movement, good thoracic posture and rotation.
 

joetapley

New member
Cheers lbp. yes two points can be better than one. The problems start when the archer has the string where we are aiming for, but the elbow is still out of line. I tend towards asking for the drawing elbow to be moved further round, which is giving a longer draw length and the string moves back. Would a head that faces the target too square on and arched back bringing the shoulders back from the arrow line, be to blame?
Don't forget that as the draw side scapula can move, the draw elbow can rotate horizontally around with the pivot point being the draw hand fingers.
Refer to McKinney's book if you have it.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Cheers Heroblob, Thanks for that. I am trying to get the bits to fit together one a particular archer and finding it a struggle.
I have a video of what looks like good face contact but the elbow is a bit outside the line.
get the line looking good and the face contact is way too far back on the face.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Joe, Yes, I see what you mean, I think I have been forgetting to build that into this archer' equation. Elbow moves into line and the draw hand hardly moved at all. A bit like top dead centre on a petrol engine. The con rod moves side to side over TDC and the piston almost stops at the top of the cylinder at that stage.
 

chuffalump

Well-known member
I think I have this problem but I decided that its because my arms are long. With the bow arm straight and the string on my chin/nose and head facing the target there is no way I can have my bow hand, string hand and string elbow in a straight line. I'd have to pull a couple of inches more up the side of the jaw to do that. Or turn my head away from the target to allow the string arm to rotate away while keeping the chin anchor.

Hmmm, might try that tomorrow.
 

joetapley

New member
I think I have this problem but I decided that its because my arms are long. With the bow arm straight and the string on my chin/nose and head facing the target there is no way I can have my bow hand, string hand and string elbow in a straight line. I'd have to pull a couple of inches more up the side of the jaw to do that. Or turn my head away from the target to allow the string arm to rotate away while keeping the chin anchor.

Hmmm, might try that tomorrow.
Maybe worth your while reading McKinney also :)
There's a section in his book about good line and how to get it. There's an account about how the belief that archers' had that they couldn't get a good line (had to go way round the side) because their arm "bone length" didn't suit was exploded in a technical study commissioned by US Archery. Nice text and supporting photo section on how to get in line.
 

hooktonboy

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
The "Simple Art of Winning" along with the Fita coaching manuals and Frangillis' "The Heretic Archer" are the three "must read" archery books - IMHO anyway.
In my IMHO too.... for what it's worth, especially McKinney..

Geoff I know this is probably going for the absolutely obvious but is a problem I've struggled with for years and it's linked to a neck problem, probably limited mobility in the cervical spine.... As you come close to "full draw" there can be a very slight tendency to push the neck forward without tipping forward - effectively shortens the draw and then you end up further down the side of the face to get the line.

I know a couple of others of us with the same stiff (weak?) neck problem. You have to watch closely for it because it is only the slightest push forward.

Other option (spectacle wearers beware...) - too much head rotation...you mentioned this I think - head too square...

Pain in the neck, mate!
 

efbe

New member
In my IMHO too.... for what it's worth, especially McKinney..

Geoff I know this is probably going for the absolutely obvious but is a problem I've struggled with for years and it's linked to a neck problem, probably limited mobility in the cervical spine.... As you come close to "full draw" there can be a very slight tendency to push the neck forward without tipping forward - effectively shortens the draw and then you end up further down the side of the face to get the line.

I know a couple of others of us with the same stiff (weak?) neck problem. You have to watch closely for it because it is only the slightest push forward.

Other option (spectacle wearers beware...) - too much head rotation...you mentioned this I think - head too square...

Pain in the neck, mate!
funny you should say this.

A month or so ago I found I had been doing exactly the same thing ever since I started. I now sit my neck back down (odd sounding I know) which hasn't brought my draw length back, but has actually changed the muscles engaged in my back slightly, making it much easier to draw!
No idea quite what has gone on there, but by not pushing my neck forward it's a lot easier, and the neck stiffness after shooting is gone :)
 

hooktonboy

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
Not so odd, Efbe - that slight push moves nearly all the tension up the neck-spine. You can end up using a lot of neck muscle to hold position.Can give you wicked headaches too ;-)

Edit, although headaches not as wicked as too much Jagermeister... so I'm told :)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks Hooktonboy,
I know that I am having trouble with one particular archer at the moment. But what is also bothering me is that it could easily happen again if I am not able to sort out how to go about establishing a draw length for anyone.
On a beginners' course, it seems that most start off too short through nervousness etc. But in a few dozen shots they are getting into a sound posture and the draw length settles. Every now and again, there is someone who struggles to get into a good posture and that is when I feel inadequate.
I just watched Performance Archery on this topic and ASW says to get the string on the nose and front of the jaw( even if it isn't central) and then get the draw elbow in line with the two hands.
It just seems that with some archers the two aren't so easy for me to help them establish these at the same time.
 
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