fine tuning

dottorfoggy

Member
arrows

i have 32" draw length, 32,6" ace c4 430, 120g point, easton nock and beiter pin, at 43,5# (screwed off the limbs at max, can't go lower) are too weak, pushing at the max are too weak, so yesterday i cut them at 32".
if the walk back tell me to make it more stiff, is better to leave the 430 to try the 400? i mean, also there is the point that can can be cutted from 120g to 100g but, for a long shaft like mine, is not better to keep more weight on the point to a better direction? for a full fita with 90/70/50/30mt
also, is better a fine tuned weak or stiff arrow?

stab

how do you balance the stab it self?
do you have any tips on how get the best balance?
they told me to rotate upside the bow, hold it with a finger 2,5" out to the stab.
after that, you prefer a stab that after release push the bow forward or push it down to a rotation?

brace and centershot

i may found the right brace and centershot, but, after a walk back, and shooting like a 1/2 meters form the targhe, to see how land the bare shaft, have you more test to be 100% sure to have it done right

tiller

as brace, i'm closer to a good setting, but at last, i want to double check it.
the test with a light stab is the best to check if is balanced? to see the top of the center stad where it move at the release.

a lot of questions :yummy:
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
If you hold the bow upside on your finger 2.5" out from riser the bow might balance. IF you add more weight to the end of the long rod, you will need to hold your finger further forwards to get the bow to balance. Most archers seem to settle for a balance that is a little forwards from the riser. 2" is ok. With a balance like that, when you release, the longrod will jump forwards a little then roll downwards soon after. What that shows is that the long rod is counteracting the tendency for the bow to kick back and flick the long rod upwards. When that happens, it means the arrow was being launched from a bow that is less stable than it could be with a little more weight at the front.
If your arrows are just a little weak, you should still be able to do a walkback and get the arrows landing close to the centre( not moving across to one side as the distance increases.)
If you want to see what the longrod does when you release, it is better to video than trying to watch for yourself.
When those results are showing things are OK you can try other things. The idea then is to see if a small change to something, makes the groups tighter or worse. For example, you might try one more weight on the longrod and see what happens to the groups.
The big issue with doing this is knowing whether the better groups is the result of the extra weight( or some other change) OR did you just have a lucky set of shots. It takes a lot of shots to decide whether the improvement came from the change or a lucky streak.
If you are shooting quite well, it is still possible to have good groups followed by not so good ones. When you are shooting very well, it is easier to see if any changes to the set up have a better effect.
 

BlackadderIA

New member
Wow, that is a lot of questions!

I think the first response should be to ask you what standard you shoot at. For a lot of these very fine tuning questions to be worth bothering with I'd say you need to be at least high MB getting on for GMB.

The second would be to say tune for groups. Use the bare shaft planing test at 30m plus to get your initial setup for the arrow spine and nocking point height (walk back isn't very accurate unless you're shooting a ton of arrows at each step). Then shoot a lot of groups with fletched arrows moving one variable very slightly between groups and noting the group size differences. The smallest groups size is the setting you want. And by a lot of groups I mean a LOT - fine tuning say just your brace height this way your looking at 300 plus arrows. Again, if you don't practice at a level that sees you shoot that many in a session then you have no real need for this level of fine tuning (yet).

Stab tuning is very subjective. As a rough static base setting your setup should balance at a point about halfway down your extender when held upside down (bottom limb pointing up) and at a point level with the throat of your grip with the bow horizontal (long rod pointing down). When shooting you should see the tip of the long rod punch out a few inches as you loose and flick up a tiny fraction before starting whatever reaction you prefer (normally rolling the bow away to the horizontal).

A few sessions with a good coach used this level of tuning or with an experienced archer would probably be your best bet though.

If you're not shooting high MB/GMB then a good basic tune will suffice - just working on form will get you way more points.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Arrows

Do a bare shaft tune and make sure that your nocking point height is correct and set the center shot/button as per the Easton tuning guide. Only when you have done this can you say with any certainty if you arrows are weak or stiff. The problem with a walk back is the side winds can affect the result, so unless you do it on a perfectly calm day you can't trust the results.

Stabs

Very much a 'try it and see' 2.5 inches is a good starting point but once you put the V bar twins and extender on as well the question of how much weight in the hand you like comes in to play. as well as whether you need to balance the bow to oppose any cant by making on of the twins end weight heavier. Start light at around 2.5 inches and add weight til you like the stability. Make sure that you can shoot a round without getting tired.


brace and centre shot

If the bow is quiet when shot bare leave the bracing height alone. The center shot is set in the bareshaft tune leave that alone as well.

Tiller

Remember, if you alter tiller you will have to do the bareshaft tune again to get the nocking point right.
 

dottorfoggy

Member
I will make a quick answer ;)
I have already made sew walk back, grouping falling on the right and I can't push more on the plunger, have already the hardest spring full screwed. If I screw more, will reduce the stroke of it. Have cut yesterday 1,5cm and his week end will be focused on tuning.
I have only 1 year on my back on this sport, with my girl, followed by a coach on skype, every week we tale two hours with a tablet to work on technical movement and action. Actually I have a 560 avg at 18mt, have made also some 290 with 30 arrows in training. We are working hard, last year, from July to december, I started to count arrows and I get 13000+ in 6 months.
I was out this week, for a walk back, sight setting and tried a 36 arrows at 70mt, I get a 316, 52-56-53-57-51-47. At the end with 5 degrees, my hands was freezing :(
Btw I want to understand as much as I can because we dont have our coach here.
We was 2 weeks last moth with him and was really happy and impressed by our progress

Later if I can, I will answer deeply, maybe after shooting to report new feed back from a tuning evening.

A picture on my last club competition, final result is 557, they make a mistake during the competition on points
98635BAA-0E08-45E7-8B59-6005C971777B.jpg

I understand also that a fine tuning will not help with the result, but I want to shoot with a good setup
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I am impressed by your hard work and desire to know all you can find out. Knowledge is never a waste of time. I sometimes find I am using the wrong knowledge; or perhaps using it at the wrong time. However that does not mean I learned something at the wrong time.The best time to learn anything, I think, is when you are asking for the information.
Arrows dropping away to the right might be the button needs to be further left. Or the sight might be a little too far left. If you adjust the sight up and down for change of distance, the scale bar of the sight may be leaning over to the left at the bottom end.
 

BlackadderIA

New member
Nice score sheet, good strong finish after dropping in those two 7's near the end.

Having the button wound right up isn't going to doing you much good. Give up on the walk back tuning though, it really is a bit hit and miss unless you're shooting on a zero wind day and marking groups rather than arrows. Even then the moving between distances throws in all sorts of variables. Bare shaft tuning is the way to go.

There's a ton of information out there about how to bare shaft tune. Basically though:

Setup the centre shot as precisely as you can.
Set the button to mid spring, mid setting.
Set the sight pin to centre and shoot some fletched groups.

If they hit left of centre it's too stiff, increase draw weight, increase brace height, increase point weight. Adjust the spring tension if you need but no more than a few turns.

If it's right of centre they're weak so do the opposite.

Throw in a few bare shafts (no fletches on the arrow) amongst your normal arrows and see if they go high or low (ignore left/right for now)

High - move nocking point up
Low - move down

Once the bare shafts are hitting level and the fletched are central that's the super rough tune complete. If you've had to move the spring more than a few turns to get the tune then your arrows aren't matched very well.

Now shoot mixed groups of fletched/unfletched to stage 1 fine tune changing the spring tension until you can get a good group of both together.

Done. Now you're ready to start properly fine tuning shooting for groups - enjoy!
 

dottorfoggy

Member


Back from training and here the result, not all the eving like that, but really close, here the avg to show my actual grouping.

Fitted the medium spring and worked just with the center shot, is really out of the center, but keep in mind, my shaft is 32"+point. Can be correlate on the angle that impact on the plunger? Just before the released is right under the sight line.

I tried also to balance the stab at 2,5" but is too much, I feel better at 1/1,5". Have a prodigy xt 72"

I may adjust the tiller next week when I finally get the new grip, the Ortho. I tried it a month ago for 2 weeks and fit really better my big hand on it. Also dampers for the limbs (sounds too much) and little damper on the sight.
My brace is 9,5", Hoyt recommend from 8 to 9 on my bow, but with ace's have to move it more
 

BlackadderIA

New member
Assuming the photo is on its side - i.e the three spot faces were actually vertical in real life - your arrows are close but a little weak.
Happily, as you have the brace height above the manufacturer's maximum that's easily fixed. Time to unwind a good few turns out of that string! Brace height has nothing to do with your arrow length so it should be in the range specified by the manufacturer.
It sounds totally backwards but lowering the brace height slightly stiffens arrows and raising it weakens them. Lowering brace height has another big advantage, longer power stroke so more speed!

Unwind your string to get the brace height to the top of the range and then shoot groups (all arrows at the same face, ideally over 30m). Come down in five turn increments and shoot groups, note size then five more turns off and another set of groups. Repeat until you hit the bottom of the range or have less than ten string twist remaining. Write everything down.

You should find there are two points (one toward the top of the manufacturer's range and one nearer the bottom) where you get the tighter groups. With practice you can actually hear these 'sweet spots' as they sound much nicer when you shoot. Set the brace height to one of the two 'sweet spots' (the top one is supposedly more forgiving of a bad loose but I'd suggest unless your shooting at Olympic level you'll be hard pushed to tell the difference). Hopefully the bare shafts will now be nearer the fletched. If not either tweak the plunger tension up a bit (if it is close) or take a 1/8th turn off the limb bolts (lower the poundage slightly).

If the photos are actually the right way up (you had the faces sideways) then forget all of that and move the nocking point up a fraction!
 

dottorfoggy

Member
Back from the field, this cold mornign was really cold :(

back on the basic setting on the centershot, like any guide says, testing the brace, playng with the plunger spring, now the hard one have just 2/3 turns on (before was at the max) and here some result at 30 mt

Pictures show a sequence of difference setting, first, was the last week setting, then, centershot and brace





brace now is 8" 5/8
still some small setting to do to have all shaft at the same direction. next time, tomorrow back to indoor
 

Stretch

Well-known member
I'm not sure why you are stuck on 100gr points. It's not the recommended weight by a long shot. I used to shoot ACE 430 at over 32" with 95gr points and I shot a bunch of 290+ 90m scores. I'd stick in 100gr and work from there. If you're worried about wind drift you should have bought x10. On an ACE I think thar 20gr will make a noticeable difference.

On the tuning front I'd be interested to know if the bare shaft to fletch shaft group opens up a lot as you soften the button. I have found with my Prodigy RX that I was getting a similar pattern to you but no matter what I did with tension the arrows just stepped across the target with the bare shaft 2" weak. I actually moved the centre shot out a little and boom... normal behaviour resumed. Also your nock point looks high - centre of group for bare vs fletch on all of those pics shows the bare fletch below the fletch. Sort that first as it will also affect the horizontal patterns.

Stabilisation - copy what your favourite archer shoots... although if they shoot high mass you can divide by 2 ( or more). 4 or 5 oz on long rod and 3 or 4 on twins. If it aims well so be it - all good. If the bow is dipping during your shot (tilts down) then more weight on twins or less on long rod. And so on.

There are complications around whether you want "static" (Brady) or dynamic (Woojin) but both work pitch one and go for it and don't worry about what it means. As you get better it will become obvious. The dynamic is more forward weighted and makes the bow feel like it wants to be shot (for want of a better description) the static or balanced setup is more like a compound where the dynamic balance is very neutral - you shoot your shot around that balance. Typically this needs higher mass to work well. Too little mass and the bow will move a lot for small grip pressure changes. (In my opinion)

Hard to describe I'm afraid but stabilisers are largely trial and error but don't be fooled into high mass unless you are sure you have the strength and control to make it work.

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
290+ at 90mt, just wow!!
interesting how change the point at the 90mt, actually i have the 120gr, i'm still waiting for a good warm day to shoot at 70 and 90, just 5c today and windy :(
yes, have to move the nocking point, today i was more focused on the centershot and brace
waitin the ortho grip, my actual is too small and can change my pressure on it, i can see and fell the difference when i shoot

so, you recommend to cut the point to 100? mine are the 120-110-100 from easton
 

BlackadderIA

New member
Tiny bit down on the nocking point and that basic tune looks about spot on.

Those 120 points would be right at the top of the range for your arrows according to Easton. Dropping to 100s will give you a noticeable speed increase (and therefore raise the sight marks) but you may find the groups open up at 90m depending on your setup (it might also be fine).

The key here is to try things out. Points are (relatively) inexpensive and changing them is an easy job. Swap out six for 100gn and give them a try - you'll need to retune things.

Remember not to spend too much time fiddling though as a good basic tune is all you're after. Extreme fiddling is the 'illness' you catch as you get to higher levels in the sport chasing those elusive extra points - if you find yourself floating arrow shafts in the bath then you know you've been well and truly 'infected'!
 

dottorfoggy

Member
130 arrows today too

Best series at 70mt, the top is the left on the picture
WP_20170409_15_57_05_Pro.jpg

And here se second at 90mt, the sight bar is on the 6 and the sight is 2 cm close to the shaft, also the center stab is pointing the target at the low white ring, here the picture show the right side.
WP_20170409_16_46_51_Pro.jpg

It show that i need a better walk back setup, falling in the right
 

Stretch

Well-known member
Given your group size I doubt your drift right is a tuning issue. More likely to be a slight bow cant or tiny string picture change. Given that the 90m group could score about 56 if centered on the ten there is no tuning issue that needs resolution.

Personally id accept what you have and get on with it. If you're intent on making changes I'd break the points at 100 (or 110 if you want to step through the options)and see what happens. But to be honest you won't see a huge change in 10 gr.

Longrod peeking into the sight window is an inherent problem for long draw archers at 90m. If you don't like it you need more speed or shorter stabilisers. It makes no difference as long as it is not blocking the sight pin. When I shot a 24" longrod on a 5" extender I never noticed. A 30" longrod becomes more obvious! The more you shoot 90m the less you will notice it.

Stretch
 

dottorfoggy

Member
perfect!
yesterday i fitted limbs dampers, sf elite for now, new ortho grip. so for now i will concentrate more on training. i will check up only the setup when i we back out, maybe next week
 

dottorfoggy

Member
another good evening and more questions

i did not mentioned before, but on my shaft, i have also the pin nock, it change something abouth to cut the point?
btw i will do it this week end, bare shaft still land and right , not so much, but never on the left...

here you can see the 120/110/100 and the 100/90/80 compared, i will keep the 120 and cut it instead to use directly the 100 one, or?



i+m shooting with beiter pin nock, but some are going to brake really soon, is the clear plast the problem? or there is some other brand, that can make a stronger pin nock? like easton?

i have the fluo green



new grip looks and work really better! really happy!
 

Attachments

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Regarding Beiter nocks: only use the "heavy colours". They are less brittle and do not break so easily.
 
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