Inappropriate draw?

Easytigers

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At a recent shoot, I noticed that one of the juniors was drawing her bow in quite an unusual way. She started her shot with her arrow pointed at about 40 degrees above horizontal.she put a small amount of tension on the string, then as she lowered it she drew the string back to her anchor point. I thought that this wasn't correct as I believed that the arrow should stay pretty much level. I didn't say anything to the archer as I didn't want to put her off mid shoot but I did question it with a senior club member. Her opinion was that it's not great technique but as it was a record status event and the judges were being very thorough, then it must be ok, perhaps because the bow was dropping throughout the draw?

This led me to a couple of questions...Firstly, is it ok? It was a very consistent shot routine that had been clearly taught and practised,so what would be the benefits?

Many thanks,
Easytigers
 

geoffretired

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Perhaps the judges let it go as the junior may be shooting a low draw weight. I think longbows are allowed to be drawn in a similar way because they have heavier arrows and less range.
It might be that she copied an archer who still uses that draw. It was very common at one time.
In some ways, it can feel more natural to draw like that. Holding the bow level all through the draw is not difficult but some find it feels odd when they first try it.
Is it wrong? I would think that as a senior she might not be allowed to use it,or even a different judge might stop her in the near future. It can lead to the archer drawing and passing through the gold with the sight and releasing as the sight reaches the gold, with no settling. I am not saying she is doing that, or will do in the future, but it can develop over time.
 

Easytigers

New member
Have been thinking about it more and think you might be right Geoff about the low poundage, therefore not really dangerous with the overshoot at shorter distances. Guess it might just have to be something that she unlearns later on (although I know how difficult that can be the more ingrained it becomes over time!)
 

AndyW

Well-known member
Without seeing the person draw it's difficult to know but by the sound of it they may be high drawing. This may not be the case though - what a judge may have seen that you did not is that it's part of their routine with the draw not happening until roughly horizontal. It's not a habit you would want to get into but if there's no to little tension on the string until it's roughly horizontal it may be let slide. If you've pointed it out to a judge or the judge obviously knows then it's on them. I'm not condoning you ignore something that is blatantly unsafe but I would assume that if that was the case they would have been pounced on.
To answer the question, a high draw is not ok unless at a flight shoot etc. Benefit of a high draw is that you can handle a lot more poundage, people who are over bowed slip into it.
 
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Rik

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If it was a WRS shoot, then WA rules aren't proscriptive about the draw - leave it to judges to determine "safe".
If it was an AGB shoot then the rules used to be more restrictive (I haven't looked lately) and specified angle through the orientation of the draw and bow hands - admittedly in such a way that it would be impossible to shoot a clout without breaking them and were not generally strictly applied...
 

Timid Toad

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Clout angles do not exceed AGBs rules for general high draw, except for longbows, who are permitted a high draw. However, if a junior is learning a high draw, they need to be advised asap. It's too easy to become an adult with a high draw, and it's hard to break that habit.
Having been at a WRS shoot in NZ where a compound archer with a high draw at 50m put an arrow over the boss, past the bank, over *the road*, across a wide grass swathe and into a hedge. TWICE!!!!! Judging failed in my opinion by not pulling up this archer, just because they didn't hit anyone or a vehicle passing.
Whoever taught the junior to shoot this way is at fault.
 

urbin

Member
Having been at a WRS shoot in NZ where a compound archer with a high draw at 50m put an arrow over the boss, past the bank, over *the road*, across a wide grass swathe and into a hedge. TWICE!!!!! Judging failed in my opinion by not pulling up this archer
Which tournament? If it was WRS it likely to be nationals. I mean we do miss the butts but that's usually due to gales [emoji14]

I agree with you that it's not acceptable, just curious about the event.
 

KidCurry

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102. General

(b) When drawing back the string of the bow an archer shall not use any technique which, in the
opinion of the judges, could, if accidentally loosed, allow the arrow to fly beyond a safety zone
or safety arrangements (overshoot area, net, wall, etc). If an archer persists in using such a
technique, he will, in the interest of safety, be immediately asked by the Judge to stop shooting
and to leave the area
Archery GB Rules of Shooting

So there it is... clear as mud. Just a judgmental call. I guess if the judge allows it, say for a junior, where in their mind the arrow will not overshoot the overshoot safety area, all is fine. But then I've shot with juniors shooting over 40lb on their fingers.

Note to Archery GB... change the sentance '...he will, in the interest of safety' to '...they will, in the interest of safety...'
 

bimble

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it is very simple. A "high" draw in itself isn't a problem. A dangerous high draw is. And what makes it a dangerous high draw is if the arrow, if loosed, would clear the overshoot. A field with a big enough overshoot would mean that there could be no such thing as a dangerous high draw.

What you don't want to do is to train up a technique that might be legal on one field, go to a shoot and discover that you're needing to change your draw because the competition field has a shorter overshoot.
 
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geoffretired

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Bimble, I would go one stage further and say you don't want to train up a dangerous draw; full stop.
Drawing the bow on a beginners' course with lightweight bows and first time archers is a different kettle of fish, perhaps, but making a point of drawing safely is a good way to establish a safe thinking archer. Drawing arrows from the boss safely, and standing back when others take their turn, is another instance of getting the mind set established.
 

Rik

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A "dangerous" draw isn't necessarily high... Recall the guy who shot himself in the foot in international competition...
 

bimble

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but the problem you have here is people not differing between "high draw" and "dangerous high draw".

This is a photo of one of the French team from the European archery champs in Nottingham last year. Is it a high draw? Yes. Is it dangerous? No.



A high draw is an easy, though these days more frowned upon, way of getting the front shoulder in a good position.

A line that jumped out at me from the opening post was, "I thought that this wasn't correct as I believed that the arrow should stay pretty much level." Now, even with a compound the arrow will have to be pointing above the level to travel distance. This is simple physics. The lower your poundage the more above level you will have to be. You should see how high I am when I'm shooting my recurve at 90m!
 

geoffretired

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I think there is a difference in the level of danger between a high draw, and having the arrow pointing above level when on aim.
On aim, and the arrow above level, should still land in the boss. Above level during the draw is an unknown quantity in a way. It might go off unexpectedly while pointing at nothing in particular.
 

Timid Toad

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Which tournament? If it was WRS it likely to be nationals. I mean we do miss the butts but that's usually due to gales [emoji14]

I agree with you that it's not acceptable, just curious about the event.
WMG Auckland :)
 

bimble

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I think there is a difference in the level of danger between a high draw, and having the arrow pointing above level when on aim.
On aim, and the arrow above level, should still land in the boss. Above level during the draw is an unknown quantity in a way. It might go off unexpectedly while pointing at nothing in particular.
which depending on the bow, and the ground, might not make a difference. I remember practicing with one junior lady one evening and we discovered that the furthest her bow could launch an arrow was only 120yds. So any field that has compounds (150yds overshoot) shooting is already longer than any high draw that she could do would send an arrow.

Here is another member of the French archery team. He is at full draw. That arrow is (currently) got quite an upward angle, certainly a lot more that it will have when he gets to anchor.

 

geoffretired

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I think the archer from the French team could get that arrow to travel well beyond the boss if released from there.
I would say that the elevation is higher than some archers produce when drawing with a slightly high draw.
My guess is that some club archers could be spoken to by a judge for elevating that much during their draw. Perhaps the French archer is being judged by those who are aware of the ground's safety overshoot.
What I'm really getting at is that I feel the safety aspect of any archer's draw should be part of their training/instruction once they are shooting at a club with their own gear and developing a style/form. Not just intervention after a high draw had been observed, but brought out deliberately in their "further instruction" sessions as a standard warning.
Along with drawing arrows from bosses is a dangerous time if done without care. Drawing carbon arrows can hurt hands if done on a splintered shaft bare handed. The shaft may have been sound when it went in and received some damage before it was removed. Likewise the coming back down with a compound.
What seems so obvious to more experienced archers can be totally unexpected by a beginner. (How often will a beginner raise their sight the first time an arrow goes low?)

- - - Updated - - -

I think the archer from the French team could get that arrow to travel well beyond the boss if released from there.
I would say that the elevation is higher than some archers produce when drawing with a slightly high draw.
My guess is that some club archers could be spoken to by a judge for elevating that much during their draw. Perhaps the French archer is being judged by those who are aware of the ground's safety overshoot.
What I'm really getting at is that I feel the safety aspect of any archer's draw should be part of their training/instruction once they are shooting at a club with their own gear and developing a style/form. Not just intervention after a high draw had been observed, but brought out deliberately in their "further instruction" sessions as a standard warning.
Along with drawing arrows from bosses is a dangerous time if done without care. Drawing carbon arrows can hurt hands if done on a splintered shaft bare handed. The shaft may have been sound when it went in and received some damage before it was removed. Likewise the coming back down with a compound.
What seems so obvious to more experienced archers can be totally unexpected by a beginner. (How often will a beginner raise their sight the first time an arrow goes low?)
 
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