Making one good shot

geoffretired

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Someone said that archery was about making one good shot and repeating it.
Some of us don't manage to get the repetition right quite as often as we would like. I have often wondered what goes wrong. Not in scientific terms but in everyday language. For example, I frequently hear archers say,"I knew that was wrong before I shot it." or " You just know when it's going to be a gold."
So why do some shots go wrong?
I thought it could be interesting to find out which "errors" are common;which ones archers find difficult to get rid of. As a recurve archer some years ago, I think my biggest problem was drawing through the clicker correctly. I always seemed to get hesitant in the last m.m. or so.
So what things go wrong for other archers? How have you tried to overcome the difficulty?
 

PorlyP

New member
I've updated my blog on what I tried to address at the club champs yesterday, but I know that when people say "I knew it was going to be a gold when I loosed", as that's more of a feeling thing, you know because you hold your position, the arrow looses perfectly, and other things that make the shot feel smooth.

Usually I can pin down things when I mess a shot up, and if I can't, I wonder about the conditions, hehe.

There were times yesterday I had that "it's gonna be gold" feeling a few times, and they were. I found they were my best releases, whether that's coincidental or not I've no idea.
 

Rik

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geoffretired said:
Some of us don't manage to get the repetition right quite as often as we would like. I have often wondered what goes wrong. Not in scientific terms but in everyday language. For example, I frequently hear archers say,"I knew that was wrong before I shot it." or " You just know when it's going to be a gold."
So why do some shots go wrong?
/QUOTE]
That might be deceptive. To see whether people actually can tell beforehand, you'd have to log their 'feelings' over a number of shots and see how well it corellated with the results. Just because you get the odd shot which feels bad and has a bad result, or feels good and gets a good result, doesn't mean a whole lot.

I've become aware of the problem of repetition over the last few years. We say we try to do things the same way each time, but do we? If we did then the shot ought to go like clockwork - after all, we each put enough shots in to make the whole process automatic to the point of a complete loss of conscious control (think changing gears in a car, or steering...). But you constantly hear people talk about 'I do this, then this' or 'I try to...' which suggests a level of interference in the process which will almost inevitably lead to differences between shots. This might make sense, in situations where you react to changing conditions, but people do it indoors too.
 

geoffretired

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Thanks for the inputs PorlyP and Rik.
Your blog is interesting PP so timing seems to make a difference to the quality. I wonder if that gives you more time to check things thoroughly or do you just operate better at that speed?
Rik, I see what you are saying about feeling good before a good shot etc.
Perhaps knowing it was wrong is something they/we say because there was a problem but ignored it; or it went wrong at the last possible moment when aborting was no longer possible. Feeling right could be another way of saying they didn't notice anything wrong. MMmmmmm. Thanks for the comments though;every little helps.:cheerful:
I know what you mean about the "do this,then do this " I agree that it can so easily destroy the flow.I sometimes say what I do(to other archers) but it is because I know from all the work I've done on the various stages. I know from the"learning to do" rather than from being aware of what I do during the shot.I know of others who almost talk their way through the shot in minute detail.
I think auto pilot takes over a large percentage of the shot form. So long as things go according to the norm, all is well. If something breaks the routine the conscious comes back in to sort or abort.
 

PorlyP

New member
geoffretired said:
Thanks for the inputs PorlyP and Rik.
Your blog is interesting PP so timing seems to make a difference to the quality. I wonder if that gives you more time to check things thoroughly or do you just operate better at that speed?
Yeah, I've found that even a couple of seconds addressing things early on have really helped, as I've noticed my worst shots are the quick ones.

I think I do take more account of how I'm positioned when I take a little more time, even if it is only a mere couple of seconds. It's almost like I settle into the shot setup position, then loose, rather than loosing before I'm settled.

Oh, and thanks for reading my blog! Not sure if my ways of thinking about things are anywhere near what I should be doing, but I'm sure I'll find out at some stage!
 

buzz lite beer

Well-known member
As I became more relaxed and confident about my shooting during a tournament I tend to relax my jaw as well and shoot with a space between my teeth, resulting in a high arrow.
 

GreenSteve

New member
buzz lite beer said:
As I became more relaxed and confident about my shooting during a tournament I tend to relax my jaw as well and shoot with a space between my teeth, resulting in a high arrow.
do you stick your tongue out too ?
isn`t that a sign of happiness in cats :)
 

PaulT

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
For me there are 2 things that must be spot on or else I know the shot is a 'shoot and pray' shot.
Firstly I must set the shot up properly (pre draw and setting the back half of my shot).
Secondly I must have committed to the shot before reaching full draw, if any doubt creeps in, the movement stops and then getting through the clicker and completing the shot are much harder and this introduces tension to the shot. This is the point at which I must decide to come down on the shot or throw the shot away. I just need to learn to come down at the right time now!
By the way, good thread Geoff; I realised the second half of this answer today thinking about your initial question - something to work on in practice.
 

Deadeye Doc

New member
geoffretired said:
Rik, I see what you are saying about feeling good before a good shot etc.
Perhaps knowing it was wrong is something they/we say because there was a problem but ignored it; or it went wrong at the last possible moment when aborting was no longer possible. Feeling right could be another way of saying they didn't notice anything wrong. MMmmmmm. Thanks for the comments though;every little helps.:cheerful:
I know what you mean about the "do this,then do this " I agree that it can so easily destroy the flow.I sometimes say what I do(to other archers) but it is because I know from all the work I've done on the various stages. I know from the"learning to do" rather than from being aware of what I do during the shot.I know of others who almost talk their way through the shot in minute detail.
I think auto pilot takes over a large percentage of the shot form. So long as things go according to the norm, all is well. If something breaks the routine the conscious comes back in to sort or abort.
Geoff

I am sure that you are aware of the progression from "unconscious ignorance to unconscious competence" theory? (Can't remember where it comes from) Not knowing that you are doing something wrong, then becoming aware of it, correcting it consciously and then doing it on auto-pilot and so on.

This "feeling" that one has either made a mistake or nailed the custard is possibly part of this unconscious competence. However, as I think I have mentioned elsewhere on the board, Al Henderson recounts the tale of a youngster who had become unconsciously competent at repeating the same mistake. So maybe we need to be more aware of what we are doing, while we are doing it?

I have also mentioned Trancendental Meditation (TM) and Autogenic Therapy AT before. Both of these are used in archery, AT being used by the likes of Frangilli, and TM in Kyudo.

I was in conversation with a "stick man" at our club who advocates TM, while I use AT. I can only speak with some authority about AT as I use it and teach it. However, we came to the conclusion that both systems allow a state of self-awareness, in AT this is while one is aware and able to react to our environment. This is why I am finding it increasingly useful in archery as it can be used while shooting.

During the shot sequence I now more frequently get the message that all is either well with what I am doing or if not then I can more quickly come down before loosing the arrow.
 

geoffretired

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Thanks again for the replies. It is getting more interesting. I am reaching the stage on this one where I feel the need to ask more questions.
I can see this splitting two ways at present and I think that is due to my initial post being rather vague.I am interested in the two aspects but pehaps it would be easier if the two were separated.
One aspect is the errors that are being made by the individual archers.
The other aspect is why we make mistakes in the first place.
Initially I was asking for errors as I was hoping to make a list of things that commonly "go wrong".
Why mistakes happen is also very interesting and could be more useful.
Deadeye Doc, Could you tell me more about AT? It sounds like it is something I should know about.
 

NoAngel

New member
A nice quote from Reference guide for Recurve archers

"The only thing we learn from analysing bad shots ? is how to shoot bad shots!? Analyse the good ones, and remember what made them good shots."

I don't know what I do bad, but I know what I do when its good ;)
 

geoffretired

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NoAngel,Thanks for the quote. I have certainly had to do some thinking about that. I am still unsure whether to agree with it or not.

A nice quote from Reference guide for Recurve archers

"The only thing we learn from analysing bad shots ? is how to shoot bad shots!?
I am unsure about this part.I think that knowing more about bad shots can help us learn how to avoid making them again. For example I sometimes shoot one way then another, close together, in order to feel the differences.It seems to make the details of the good shots more obvious.

Analyse the good ones, and remember what made them good shots."
I think this makes good sense. Perhaps I should analyse the good ones more often.

I don't know what I do bad, but I know what I do when its good
This is very interesting. Have you always been in that situation, from a beginner for example, or has this been reached over time?
 

Deadeye Doc

New member
geoffretired said:
Deadeye Doc, Could you tell me more about AT? It sounds like it is something I should know about.
I'll PM you as it's probably of little general interest - except to those who are interested in the psychological side of archery ...:sigh:
 

PaulT

The American
Ironman
American Shoot
Deadeye Doc said:
I'll PM you as it's probably of little general interest - except to those who are interested in the psychological side of archery ...:sigh:
I suspect you'll probably find afew of those on here - me included - is it possible to post a rough guide to AT, or is a rough guide too little detail?
 

Deadeye Doc

New member
I suspect you'll probably find afew of those on here - me included - is it possible to post a rough guide to AT, or is a rough guide too little detail?
Actually, you're right. It ought to be taught by a trained therapist over a period of about nine to ten weeks (one session a week with the client/patient practicing daily - and then continuing to use AT daily) with a followup session some weeks later.
However, a brief:melodrama overview may give you some idea of what is intended, or actually OBSERVED by the client.
As I said, the idea is to become aware of oneself without necessarily interfering with the process.
As a therapy the process occasionally throws up some emotional problems and this is the reason for suggesting a trained therapist. Once taught the client has a tool for life that they can go away and use without the need for a therapist. It's why I like it so much!

OK, so how many of those "who might be interested" blind boss? For me it is a wonderful experience as I learn to "feel" the shot. I am able to sense what I am doing and if I am being coached or am using a video I can be "told" what to work on.

AT is most often used in combination with Progressive Relaxation. I know many coaches teach progressive relaxation as a means of calming archers (or other sportsmen) before a shoot. The Autogenic state is something that is probably known to most of you. AT allows you to achieve this at will. It is something like a waking daydream or drowsing on a sunny afternoon by a riverside, listening to the water and the birds, yet being alert and comfortable wih your surroundings. It will be different for everyone.

There are similarities with TM in that both teach self-awareness but with AT there is no religious or other "cosmic awareness", it is merely learning to observe the physical or in the case of "therapy" emotional and to allow the body to adjust or resolve "stress".

In the early 1920s research with subjects undergoing hypnosis showed that they experienced certain things while "going under". Heat and heaviness were most frequently mentioned. AT uses these modalities as a focus on all parts of the body. However, not all people experience these and it is more about the individual experiencing and observing what is happening to them during AT. I can't tell them what they will experience, they tell me! AT has been developed over the last 80 or so years and has occasionally been called "the Western" TM. Other therapies can be used with this including NLP, Hypnotherapy, EMDR and EFT. Some of these are rapidly developing and have yet to be used to full effect, but others are already making inroads into Evidence Based Practice. EMDR for example has been added to the list of therapies approved by NICE for the NHS. Of course there are virtually no therapists available.:thumbsdow

It can be used with great effect in sport. Pete Sampras immediately springs to mind as do many "free pistol" champions. I've already mentioned Frangilli. It can be used while on the shooting line as a means of focusing on making the shot, or on "form".

I recently took the central "pin" out of my Spigarelli sight and started "not centering" the sight. My shots have become more relaxed and are less about "Oh, I've got to keep the pin smack in the centre"! Henderson and others talk about forcing oneself to hold the pin in the centre being detrimental. I can use AT to achieve this knowing that what I am trying to do is achieve a "good shot" and knowing when it feels right to shoot, while also being aware of being able to abort a shot if it feels wrong.:crackup:

I hope this helps to give some idea of what AT is about. I feel that it is really only scratching the surface. Unfortunately there are all to few therapists in the UK:sour: and the stuff on websites about AT is really far too superficial.

Bloody hell! I never thought I'd do that!:melodrama :faint:
 

Murray

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Ironman
American Shoot
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IMO, anyone who is not interested in the psychological archery probably won't reach their full potential (unless they're just naturally gifted in that area). The AT stuff is interesting, and certainly worth a look for anyone who feels their psychological approach is holding them back, however, I'm not entirely convinced by it, particularly the way in which it's marketed as a panacea, and never EVER suggested as a method which can be self taught (of course not, otherwise why would you pay ?35 an hour to a tutor :D ) - an interesting article here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1638964,00.html and the other - rather thin - side of the argument here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1643320,00.html) however - I don't want to get in to an argument as to its benefits, or otherwise - go find out for yourself, and let us know if it works for you!! :)

Focussing on bad shots, and what created them is IMO, a fairly pointless exercise... why do you want to know what makes a bad shot?? What you really want to know is how to shoot a good shot - what makes up a good shot? How do you replicate a good shot? The time you spend analysing the bad shot is, in my opinion, lost opportunity to spend time replicating the good one.

In terms of making a list of "what could go wrong" - how long do you have?? Of course, archery is the art of repetition, but we are, by nature, imperfect and rarely can conciously repeat exactly the same action twice either for physical reasons or mental reasons, you'll never summarise them all in a list which makes sense to everyone, and has a list of potential solutions beside each common problem.

The real answer, of course, is how to increase your bad shot to good shot ratio. EVERYONE makes mistakes - it's part of what and who we are... the difference is that a beginner might make a mistake on 90% of his/her shots, where a top archer might make a mistake on 5% of his/her shots - the mistakes also get less in severity (simply because the process should become more refined with practice).

And it comes to practice - some say the more we practice good shots, the "easier" they become... I'd suggest that they don't become easier, they just become more frequent, which improves confidence, which enables us to let go of the fears we harbour and make the shot, which has more of a chance of being a good shot... go to step 1... (perhaps the "easy" feeling is a lowering of anxiety rather than some physical ease)

Many problems come from over-thinking the shot, over-feeling the shot - which requires a conscious intervention - all of my best shots have been controlled, but didn't require significant amounts of analytical intervention, and again the best method I know of to avoid over thinking, is to get high-quality practice in an environment where the archer can "lose the fear", i.e. shut out external distractions which otherwise may make him/her anxious about the result (in some ways, this is how blank bale helps - the archery knows that neither the archer nor anyone in their vicinity will criticise, or even consider, their group on a blank bale - but on a target, there is the pressure to perform and produce a successful result).

The more good shots we shoot, the more the mind will understand what a good shot "means" in terms of emotional, physical and psychological content - and this may be different for each individual to some extent, so again it comes down to practice and training exercises, designed to instill in the form that which produces good results. We must be wary though, in that it's possible for the mind to decide a shot was "a good one", just because the arrow landed in the middle - regardless of whether it was actually a good shot or not - on the other hand, a shot which "feels good" might not got in the middle (this is the downside of too much blank bale shooting - it can instill bad form!!)

I think this is such a broad topic that I'd better stop there as I've prattled on long enough :footinmou. The bottom line for me is that most mistakes on the shooting line happen because of a lack of the right volume of the right quality of practice and the right level of feedback.
 
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Deadeye Doc

New member
... The AT stuff is interesting, and certainly worth a look for anyone who feels their psychological approach is holding them back, however, I'm not entirely convinced by it, particularly the way in which it's marketed as a panacea, and never EVER suggested as a method which can be self taught (of course not, otherwise why would you pay ?35 an hour to a tutor :D ) - an interesting article here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1638964,00.html and the other - rather thin - side of the argument here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1643320,00.html) however - I don't want to get in to an argument as to its benefits, or otherwise - go find out for yourself, and let us know if it works for you!! :) ...
This is part of the reason I really did not want to put anything on the board. I now wish I had not! Yes, once again the wonderful Medical journal "the Guardian"! :yawn: :thumbsdow

As I said, in the thread above, some psychotherapies have good evidence (EMDR) but others (NLP is a good example here) do not. Why is it that NLP is regarded by many people as a universal panacea for "motivation", "success in business", "Successful management", "achieving your potential" and so on? Virtually nobody has heard of EMDR and yet this is probably one of the most effective and powerful methods of treatment in its field that is available?

I do not hold a candle for anything in particular, but find AT extremely effective as a therapy for some of my patients. As I have taught on an international Evidence Based Health Care methods course I have to agree with the Grauniad writer but would also point out that Coronary Care units have been using AT in the USA prior to cardiac surgery. The evidence is there.

LMP: Thanks for your comment. To be honest, I have better things to do with my time than have to reply to Sceptic and his like.:muted:
 

Murray

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Ironman
American Shoot
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Oops - sorry... calm down doc, didn't mean to upset anyone - perhaps that AT isn't working :D - all I was saying is it's worth looking at, but I'm not convinced.

Personally, I've done a lot of "relaxation technique" training - including yoga, and various meditation systems in order to recorver from target panic. I've found most of them of little use - that doesn't mean to say they won't work for others with a alternative issues to work out... e.g. pre-competition nerves. I've also found being too "physically relaxed" can have a negative effect when attempting to execute a shot, but I imagine any "mental calming" might be a good thing, although the relationship between "mental calmness", focus and concentration is a little hard for me to fully grasp.

During squad training, we've found that some will respond well to being very laid back and calm, others respond well to being "wound up and aggressive"... others, somewhere in the middle.

To repeat "certainly worth a look for anyone who feels their psychological approach is holding them back"
 
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