Oh dear...

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
So I started in January alongside my son (8); got a Hoyt Ignite and a wrist release, got him a Ruckus.

Things went well - we progressed, I moved onto a proper sight, went backwards. Got used to the sight, progressed.
Went outdoors, my aluminium arrows wouldn't reach 60 yards, got a set of ACGs - 80 yards was now okay.

Upgraded my bow to an Origin and increased the poundage to 55 (from 50 on the Hoyt) - all fine and groups were fairly decent. Shot in the pouring rain, scored okay but trashed three arrows and the wrist release appeared to stretch - my anchor point was suddenly behind my head. Shot my first tournament, a hell of a slog and found the non anchor point a real PITA but did okayish (but last in my group!!), felt a bit despondent, decided I needed a shorter, solid release. Tried a really decent wrist release and a hinge thanks to two very helpful members here - the wrist release was much better than mine but I wanted a shorter distance to the d-loop. Had a good go with the hinge and ended up really nervous - literally shaking with worry on each draw. Sort of started to get the hang of it but lost two ACG arrows (found one though).
Bought a Carter Plain 1 thumb release as I wanted the security of a "closed" hook and a full finger loop - initially tried to shoot it like a back tension release and got nice results - 5 yellows and a red (very near the yellow) at 80 yards but accidentally hit the trigger twice and lost two more ACGs...Decided to try it as a normal trigger release and was okay in the garden (20 yards) then shot last night more to get sight marks in.
TOTAL disaster - I was completely all over the place, missing the target at 50m (usually I'd get all/mostly yellows), lost FOUR ACGs but but found two thanks to the great guys at our club. At one point the release didn't seem to work at all and by the time it did, I have no idea where the arrow went (it was down the range though - not dangerous!). I actually just stopped shooting and packed up and watched my son - I have lost about 5 ACGs now, ?25 each, all since changing from wrist to hand held release; I can't actually afford to lose any more.

So... I was borderline going to throw in the towel last night. I've spent a FORTUNE on kit (I'd say around ?2k since January) but seem to be chasing my tail. I improve (and enjoy it) then go backwards. It's now costing me a lot. My coach is adamant that the hand held release is the way forward but I'm starting to wonder.

Has anyone got any suggestions? Clearly I'm not using the release right and it appears to go off almost randomly (I didn't plan on a "surprise" release device but this seems to be one). I've also found myself in the slightly odd position of being a bit "nervous" of my bow.

So hang in there, practise to death in the garden at very short ranges, give up on the release and go back to wrist or just cry a bit?

On the upside my son shot really well. As he gets better I seem to get worse.
 

mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
You need to get your coach to actually watch what your doing and pinpoint what your doing wrong.... If its a thumb trigger, when do you put your thumb on? I would think you should draw and anchor with your thumb nowhere near, retain back tension, then put your thumb on and trigger when your ready.
I would also say that 80yds is a bit of a stretch to try new kit out on, I would stick with 10yds till you get the feel of it, then maybe go up to 40 and then 80 once you have your confidence back.
Changing release type is a big change for compound, and your a new shooter too, so I think your trying to take too big a step at once. Id go back to your ali's at short range and settle in.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
You need to get your coach to actually watch what your doing and pinpoint what your doing wrong.... If its a thumb trigger, when do you put your thumb on? I would think you should draw and anchor with your thumb nowhere near, retain back tension, then put your thumb on and trigger when your ready.
I would also say that 80yds is a bit of a stretch to try new kit out on, I would stick with 10yds till you get the feel of it, then maybe go up to 40 and then 80 once you have your confidence back.
Changing release type is a big change for compound, and your a new shooter too, so I think your trying to take too big a step at once. Id go back to your ali's at short range and settle in.
I initially drew it back (thumb trigger) at the same angle I anchored at; that seemed pretty accurate but my thumb was just too close to the trigger and set it off accidentally twice. So now I draw it back parallel to my bow with my thumb well clear then move it outwards once anchored - then move my thumb over the trigger and...usually miss (at the moment!).
I am fairly sure using like a back tension device is the best way forward but not certain. Someone mentioned using my inner thumb/crease rather than my thumb tip - I've tried both.

What I seem to be suffering from is the dreaded target panic/punching but not sure how to sort it.
Fairly sure if I do get the hang of it, it'll be good but it's an expensive learning curve at the moment!
 

urbin

Member
You need to get your coach to actually watch what your doing and pinpoint what your doing wrong.... If its a thumb trigger, when do you put your thumb on? I would think you should draw and anchor with your thumb nowhere near, retain back tension, then put your thumb on and trigger when your ready.
I would also say that 80yds is a bit of a stretch to try new kit out on, I would stick with 10yds till you get the feel of it, then maybe go up to 40 and then 80 once you have your confidence back.
Changing release type is a big change for compound, and your a new shooter too, so I think your trying to take too big a step at once. Id go back to your ali's at short range and settle in.
Yup, pull a target back to 10m and spend time getting to know your release. At home you can attach a loop to a piece of cord and practice without your bow.

You might also try setting the trigger "heavy" if you're concerned about setting it off accidentally. You also need the thumb peg in the right place - somewhere where you can't set it off during the draw but where it's also in a convenient position to get your thumb around it.

I shoot a thumb release like a back tension - I don't trigger it on purpose, I pull through the shot.

Sent from my SM-A310Y using Tapatalk
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
Yup, pull a target back to 10m and spend time getting to know your release. At home you can attach a loop to a piece of cord and practice without your bow.

You might also try setting the trigger "heavy" if you're concerned about setting it off accidentally. You also need the thumb peg in the right place - somewhere where you can't set it off during the draw but where it's also in a convenient position to get your thumb around it.

I shoot a thumb release like a back tension - I don't trigger it on purpose, I pull through the shot.

Sent from my SM-A310Y using Tapatalk
That's what I'm hoping to achieve. Got the hang of it on a loop of string, can't seem to translate it to my bow! One day (I hope)!
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
I think the fact that you've changed equipment so much this season is part of the problem.
You're really new to the sport but have very high-end expectations - it takes years to hit serious standard and some never do - otherwise we'd all be doing it! You must have spent years getting to your level in your previous sports. Archery is no different, and compound archery the worst, because it's so equipment based; you need to be very comfortable with your equipment before you can get form into shape then performance will follow.

So. 10m in the garden. *lots* of shots. Get settled with your equipment. Work out your nerves - it's a newbie thing (I don't shoot compound very often and have the same thing, but it will settle) and the more you shoot the more you'll gain in confidence. A lot of archery is about muscle memory and programming the subconscious. More shots is going to help. Then get some video of you shooting at the club. Work out where in your form you need to be concentrating. Of course, don't overdo it - injury is more likely the older you get and archery uses quite a unique set of muscles.

The indoor season is ideal for getting into new kit and working through form issues, so this is an ideal time to settle in for the slog.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
Update from the forum idiot.
With great advise from here and on FB, I have changed how I draw and release - basically I was trying to use the release like a wrist one - draw, aim, pull trigger; mostly miss.
I had got the hang of using it as a back tension device on a loop of string but was struggling to translate that to my bow. Anyway a fair few shots at short range and the arrows are going where they should. Still not as accurate as I was with my wrist release (until the darn thing stretched) but it's a work in progress. The main thing is it feels "right."

I think my early brief success with it actually stuffed me up - I thought I'd cracked it but I'd basically got away with bad technique.

What I think has happened is the wrist release is "easier" to get the hang of but I knew a much shorter distance to the d-loop was better (for me); so I got away with probably fairly ropey form for a while. The thumb release has highlighted that and bitten me on the butt (and wallet) but just now in the garden, using it as a back tension style release (or my version of one anyway!), it feels right.

So back to practising more and more; one thing about archery is it's always challenging. I think you learn the basics really quickly and can show early "promise" but further down the line, errors in technique drag you back down and put you back in your place.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Early success is not a bad thing; it gets us liking archery when an early struggle might put some off.
The problem can be with the accidental learning that often happens ; it gives us a good start but we don't know why. Or slightly worse; fools us into thinking we are getting everything right.
With accidental learning, we are left struggling when things go wrong as we have no idea what has changed; and/or what to do next.
I think most of us will remember having to "start again" and this time learn some things deliberately... which takes more time.
The good thing about deliberate learning is that we can "call it back" when things go wrong.
Sometimes, the things we deliberately learn, change slowly and secretly, over time. That happens more often when we don't practise that learning on a regular basis. Some archers are shooting rounds every time they shoot; and scoring; and disappointing themselves now and again. Some time spent on form would pay dividends. Sunday sermon... ends here!
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Early success is not a bad thing; it gets us liking archery when an early struggle might put some off.
The problem can be with the accidental learning that often happens ; it gives us a good start but we don't know why. Or slightly worse; fools us into thinking we are getting everything right.
With accidental learning, we are left struggling when things go wrong as we have no idea what has changed; and/or what to do next.
I think most of us will remember having to "start again" and this time learn some things deliberately... which takes more time.
The good thing about deliberate learning is that we can "call it back" when things go wrong.
Sometimes, the things we deliberately learn, change slowly and secretly, over time. That happens more often when we don't practise that learning on a regular basis. Some archers are shooting rounds every time they shoot; and scoring; and disappointing themselves now and again. Some time spent on form would pay dividends. Sunday sermon... ends here!
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
That's what I'm hoping to achieve. Got the hang of it on a loop of string, can't seem to translate it to my bow! One day (I hope)!
The problem you have when translating from string to bow is the bow has a back wall with a little give in it. Whereas the string has no give at all and so feels very different.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Has anyone got any suggestions? Clearly I'm not using the release right and it appears to go off almost randomly (I didn't plan on a "surprise" release device but this seems to be one). I've also found myself in the slightly odd position of being a bit "nervous" of my bow.

So hang in there, practise to death in the garden at very short ranges, give up on the release and go back to wrist or just cry a bit?

On the upside my son shot really well. As he gets better I seem to get worse.
I don't think you have target panic. I think you are suffering feelings of insecurity caused by loss of control. When you had your wrist release you did not worry about setting it off as you anchored so you had control of your anchoring. After you anchored you put on the backtension aimed and set off the release when you wanted to. You were in control. Now you are not in control of the 'when' any more and deep down you don't like that
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I don't think you have target panic. I think you are suffering feelings of insecurity caused by loss of control. When you had your wrist release you did not worry about setting it off as you anchored so you had control of your anchoring. After you anchored you put on the backtension aimed and set off the release when you wanted to. You were in control. Now you are not in control of the 'when' any more and deep down you don't like that
That's definitely a big part of it. When I used the hinge release I ended up borderline scared of the bow - just when I started to get the hang of it, I lost two arrows.
Confidence is slowly returning again but losing four (found two) arrows didn't help. I was doing it wrong - so much better (and more satisfying) when it's done right but I'm under no illusions that I've cracked it yet.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
I think my early brief success with it actually stuffed me up - I thought I'd cracked it but I'd basically got away with bad technique.

What I think has happened is the wrist release is "easier" to get the hang of but I knew a much shorter distance to the d-loop was better (for me); so I got away with probably fairly ropey form for a while. The thumb release has highlighted that and bitten me on the butt (and wallet) but just now in the garden, using it as a back tension style release (or my version of one anyway!), it feels right.

So back to practising more and more; one thing about archery is it's always challenging. I think you learn the basics really quickly and can show early "promise" but further down the line, errors in technique drag you back down and put you back in your place.
I can see how you might feel that way but bad technique with a wrist release would not have given you any success at all.
You had become reasonably proficient with a wrist release and now you basically have stuffed yourself by changing over to a hand held, so you have to go back to almost the beginning and start all over again.
I would bet money that you would progress quickly If you went back to a decent properly set up wrist release. But you would have to learn a few things in the near future if you do. You would have to learn to spot the 'float' rather than the dot going through the gold. you have to learn how minimize the float and using the middle finger (much better anchor), trigger the release without affecting the way the dot floats in the centre. It's building a mental pathway between sight picture and release finger a bit like Pavlov's dogs. It's not easy I shot limited compound for six years, finger loose so you have to decide when to loose.( there are no back tension release fingers) If you think you can do that without getting TP then go back to the wrist release. If you don't think you can then stick with the hand held
 

AndyW

Well-known member
Kernowlad, backinblack makes a good point and if all Cs aren't allowed get a cheap set of Allies. For the first year in field we generally advise regarding arrows as disposable. In fact, I shoot pretty expensive arrows but I'm going to go back to a set of Powerflights because I'm going to be changing a couple of things and don't want to mangle my good sets.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I was doing it wrong - so much better (and more satisfying) when it's done right
It sounds like you knew it was wrong and now you know what is right. That is a big step forward. When you know what is right; and know that it works, there is every incentive to continue using that method.I find it helps to score every shot. Not by where it lands, but how it was executed. If you carry out your execution as you planned it to happen, that scores 1 if you do it differently it scores 0. Focus on one part of the execution, such as " Did I activate the trigger as I planned? Yes or NO!
At the early stages the timing may vary but that is to be expected. Ignore the timing unless you gave up or changed your plan.
For example, some archers hold the release aid quite lightly and as they continue the draw after they settle on aim, their hand tightens and off goes the shot.
If their hand tightens and the shot goes as planned that is a 1. If the hand doesn't tighten so they resort to pressing the trigger with the thumb instead; that is not following the plan and scores 0.
(I am not saying that pressing the trigger with the thumb is wrong.... it is only wrong if that isn't how you planned the shot to happen.)
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I was doing it wrong - so much better (and more satisfying) when it's done right
It sounds like you knew it was wrong and now you know what is right. That is a big step forward. When you know what is right; and know that it works, there is every incentive to continue using that method.I find it helps to score every shot. Not by where it lands, but how it was executed. If you carry out your execution as you planned it to happen, that scores 1 if you do it differently it scores 0. Focus on one part of the execution, such as " Did I activate the trigger as I planned? Yes or NO!
At the early stages the timing may vary but that is to be expected. Ignore the timing unless you gave up or changed your plan.
For example, some archers hold the release aid quite lightly and as they continue the draw after they settle on aim, their hand tightens and off goes the shot.
If their hand tightens and the shot goes as planned that is a 1. If the hand doesn't tighten so they resort to pressing the trigger with the thumb instead; that is not following the plan and scores 0.
(I am not saying that pressing the trigger with the thumb is wrong.... it is only wrong if that isn't how you planned the shot to happen.)
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I have a full set of aluminium arrows - Genesis XX75s.
Making good progress in the garden - I do like the feel of it when I get it right.
More work to do but I do like a challenge.

Talking of which, I managed to break the 40 minute barrier for my 5.2 mile coast route today - been trying for over 3 years!
13 gates and stiles, very hilly, got 39m03s. Average pace of 7min30sec per mile. Hurrah!

 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
well done, I used to be able to do 5 miles in 35 min. but that was a flat route with no gates or styles and a lot of years ago.
 
Top