Struggling with draw weight

Bit of a long story but....

I took up archery 5 years ago and the first bow I bought had 34lb limbs. In truth this was a bit too much for me and if I shot a round by the last 2-3 ends I'd be really struggling to draw the bow. Over the course of the first 12-18 months I built up my strength and found that I could shoot 34lb without too many problems. Since then I've bought a new bow (2 years ago W&W Inno CXT with W&W Rapido Limbs) with new limbs but still kept them at 34lb (at my draw length, according to my bow scale this is 40lb OTF) and whilst I never made drawing/aiming look easy/comfortable I could shoot well and was within a whisker of achieving bowman. Then I had a long run of bad luck. Twice in two years my back went and I couldn't shoot at all (or go into work) for 3 months and 2 months respectively and after each bout of back problems it would take me a long time to slowly build my strength and form back up again.

This year things got so bad but I really started to almost hate shooting, or at least hate shooting my bow. I bought lighter 32lb limbs and this helped but I just found that I simply didn't have the strength to shoot a whole round. Typically I would find that in an end the first 3 arrows would be good, the next 2 would be a struggle and on the 6th I could sometimes struggle to even pull through the clicker. Over the course of a round I'd get 1/3rd to 1/2th way through and start to get very tired and by 2/3rds I'd end up having to give up. There was a very big part of me that wanted to just give up archery. It was only the memory of how much I used to enjoy it that kept me going.

By chance several members of my club all got into traditional archery and one of them kindly allowed me to shoot their American Flatbow one day. I immediately fell in love with it and the very next weekend went out and bought myself a bow and wooden arrows. The bow is rated at 35lb and according to my bow scale this equates to 39.75lb OTF, so essentially the same as my recurve.

I've only had this bow for just over 2 months and the furthest I've shot is only 40M but I'm getting very good groups, frequent all gold ends with scores averaging 48-52 an end. More importantly I find I can shoot this bow all day long and when shoot a round I can shoot the last arrow the same as the very first arrow and indeed could shoot 2 rounds back to back quite comfortably.

Today though I decided to try my recurve again. Bizarrely when I first drew the bow I actually thought something was wrong and that I'd forgotten to set something up because I couldn't feel anything. The next thing I noticed was just how incredibly heavy my recurve feels compared to my flatbow, just holding it out in front of me was making my arm ache.

After checking everything I then loosed a few arrows and was pleasantly surprised when 4 of them ended in a tight group in the 9/10 but after that everything started to go wrong again and I was back to shooting 3 arrows well, 2 arrows badly and 1 arrow almost not able to pull through the clicker.

I do know that some of this is down to just loosing muscle strength over 2 years of minimal shooting but I also believe that some of it is down to my form.

With the flatbow I have no problem at all drawing it, in fact I think I could comfortably draw a 45lb bow (10lb's heavier) but I struggle with the recurve because it's a slower draw. I always find that the first part of the draw (say up to where the string in 4-5 inches from the face) is so easy it almost feels like there's nothing there. From there to my anchor position it get's harder but not difficult. The problem appears to be that sometimes I've come to my anchor and the clicker might be 1/2" from the tip of the arrow, other times it could be anything up to 2" away. Very, very occasionally I might find that I might have drawn to within 0.5-1cm from the clicker and then find I pull through the clicker before I'm even ready (but this is rare).

I always go through the same shot process. I always concentrate on my form but as soon as I start to draw and I start to feel the resistance of the limbs something just goes wrong and although it feels like I'm at the correct anchor position, I'm clearly not and have far too much arrow to expand through the clicker with.

I don't want to give up recurve but equally I don't want to struggle so much with it either. I'm not sure how best to work through the problem. Any thoughts, suggestions?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I don't think your situation is so unusual.I know a few archers who would say the same things.
I am assuming you use a sight on the recurve and not on the AFB. I am assuming your wooden arrows are the same length as your recurve ones; so your draw length and full draw posture are about the same with both.
When you draw the AFB do you try to draw it the same way as the recurve; or do you use two very different draw styles?
 

Corax67

Well-known member
Your story sounds remarkably similar to my own - recurve advanced quickly, big shiny kit acquired (inno CXT), then I lost form completely, a spell of illness leaving me unable to shoot recurve and everything saved by a third hand longbow.

Now I am back in the game, most importantly my head is.

I shoot longbow as my first choice, in winter I switch to my stripped down recurve as a barebow, I have a loaned compound to tinker with which is cool and frustrating in equal measure but am giving recurve another go now too.

I am never going to be a great archer - I don't have the time or opportunity to get in the practice or the self drive to be super competitive but I love this sport.

I look at the weather on a club day, grab whatever bow takes my fancy and just go and shoot with my mates at club. If I score really well it is a bonus but ultimately if I have had fun and so me down from a tough week in work then that is all that matters.

Don't give up on recurve, it will come back, but t shooting other bow styles too means you won't be stressing over it to a point where you pack in.




Karl
 

Timid Toad

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Sounds to me like it's your bow arm side of your body that is weak, but the draw arm side is fine - hence the trouble supporting the mass of the recurve but no problem with the AFB. If your front shoulder isn't strong/stable it will affect your draw and also probably reduce your draw length (because your shoulder is collapsing in to you), giving you that struggling feeling. If you do have this imbalance it's probably a good idea to do some exercise to build you back up. YouTube has loads of vids. Then you can think about doing some reversals. I'd start with your stabilisers on but no weights at all, and gradually over the weeks, add the weights back on. The exercises will help your back health in general (do both sides so you maintain symmetry) and you'll be back to shooting both bows no problem.
 
I don't think your situation is so unusual.I know a few archers who would say the same things.
I am assuming you use a sight on the recurve and not on the AFB. I am assuming your wooden arrows are the same length as your recurve ones; so your draw length and full draw posture are about the same with both.
When you draw the AFB do you try to draw it the same way as the recurve; or do you use two very different draw styles?
Yes im using a full recurve set up so, sights, clicker, stabilisers etc but on my AFB it's just 'stick & string'. My arrows are exactly the same length, for recurve I shoot ACG's and traditional wooden arrows for my AFB.

My draw is very similar on my AFB to that on my recurve but with the obvious differences of a different anchor position (although I do still use 1 finger above, 2 below). My grip on the bow isn't as relaxed as on my recurve I probably do hold it too much with the risk of torking it but it doesn't seem to be causing me any problems. The actual draw process is slightly different in that on my AFB I can draw it to my anchor in one quick movement and then can expand with the shoulders to my full draw before release. On my recurve I feel I have to transfer the weight onto the shoulders before I've reached my anchor which is why I think I draw to a different point on the arrow. The main difference and the bit I know I'm doing wrong is that on mybrecurve my bow arm shoulder comes up and once it's up I lower it when it's under load. If I try to keep it down on the setup of the shot I can struggle with the physical weight of the bow when holding it out with my bow arm. The first 2-3 shots it's fine and then the shoulder comes up.
 
Oh and the only other thing I do on the AFB is that I tilt it very slightly to the right to help hold the arrow on the shelf but as I'm getting more and more used to it I'm tilting it only very slightly now.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I can see several things that you can do, to end up shooting your recurve without the sense of struggle.
I think it would help, if you go in stages, so each stage is easier to manage.
Stage 1, shoot your recurve bow as a barebow, no sights or stabs, no clicker. I suggest doing this at close range, with no worries about missing the boss.
You should be able to get into that quite quickly and feel the similarities. You may notice the weight in the hand of the recurve, but that should fade as you get used to drawing it faster and without a sight to distract you.
I feel that there is a good chance that you draw the recurve too slowly and too carefully; giving yourself too much time to feel the draw weight and possibly trying to hold the sight still long before you need to.
Stage2 fit the longrod with as few weights as possible. and shoot it like your barebow. You should notice the bow feels better than without the longrod. Be aware of the draw speed, if you feel you are slowing it down, then you need to work past that till it is like the barebow shooting again.
Stage3 keep the bow with just a longrod, but when you draw( like the barebow draw,) make sure that touching your face with the string does not trigger a release. You should reach your face easily and fairly quickly, but on contact with the face, you still need to draw some more before the release. About 1cm is enough to know you are succeeding to draw further. Don't bother with measuring it just go by feel and by the time it takes. I don't mean, add a second to the draw time. I mean, KNOW it is taking a bit longer for the extra bit of draw.Taking the same amount of time for that extra draw is not the issue. The issue is that you know you made that part happen; you didn't let go on contact.
That might take a while to get used to.
If that sounds like the sort of thing you want to try; then let me know. If you go ahead with stages 1,2,3 it would help to send feedback to let me know how things are going. The rest can wait until you feel you are happy with what you have managed.
Cheers
Geoff
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I can see several things that you can do, to end up shooting your recurve without the sense of struggle.
I think it would help, if you go in stages, so each stage is easier to manage.
Stage 1, shoot your recurve bow as a barebow, no sights or stabs, no clicker. I suggest doing this at close range, with no worries about missing the boss.
You should be able to get into that quite quickly and feel the similarities. You may notice the weight in the hand of the recurve, but that should fade as you get used to drawing it faster and without a sight to distract you.
I feel that there is a good chance that you draw the recurve too slowly and too carefully; giving yourself too much time to feel the draw weight and possibly trying to hold the sight still long before you need to.
Stage2 fit the longrod with as few weights as possible. and shoot it like your barebow. You should notice the bow feels better than without the longrod. Be aware of the draw speed, if you feel you are slowing it down, then you need to work past that till it is like the barebow shooting again.
Stage3 keep the bow with just a longrod, but when you draw( like the barebow draw,) make sure that touching your face with the string does not trigger a release. You should reach your face easily and fairly quickly, but on contact with the face, you still need to draw some more before the release. About 1cm is enough to know you are succeeding to draw further. Don't bother with measuring it just go by feel and by the time it takes. I don't mean, add a second to the draw time. I mean, KNOW it is taking a bit longer for the extra bit of draw.Taking the same amount of time for that extra draw is not the issue. The issue is that you know you made that part happen; you didn't let go on contact.
That might take a while to get used to.
If that sounds like the sort of thing you want to try; then let me know. If you go ahead with stages 1,2,3 it would help to send feedback to let me know how things are going. The rest can wait until you feel you are happy with what you have managed.
Cheers
Geoff
 
Cheers Geoff, I think that sounds like a very good plan and one that I will give a go. I had been thinking about shooting my recurve as a barebow anyway just to see how it compared to the AFB.

I think you are right about the fact I'm probably drawing the bow too slowly. It's difficult to explain, it's not an overly slow draw but it's a 'controlled' draw during which I try to make sure I'm using the right muscles and transferring it onto my shoulder. I've tried doing a much faster, firmer draw but found that the bow just swayed around so much that I found it difficult to settle it down and it was too fast for me to really use the right muscles. I think that if I could draw it perhaps at the same speed as I do but to draw it more firmly it would help but physically I just don't seem to be able.

The other thing I noticed yesterday was that my bicep and shoulder on my draw arm were aching a bit after shooting just 30 arrows the day before. As previously mentioned, when shooting the AFB I don't have this problem at all and although I shoot that faster than my recurve I do aim it a bit like a recurve, so I'll draw, anchor, aim, release. The whole shot cycle is probably around 50-70% faster than on my recurve but it's not 'instinctive' super fast shooting.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A nice clear explanation, I can almost imagine what you do.
The problem here is that word "controlled". That can mean, very stiff and almost nervous in case it deviates from the intended route. Like trying to control a naughty child who is just waiting to do something naughty.
I see "controlled" as something different from that. Controlled, in my view, is no more than Happening the way I want it to happen. My draw looks rushed, to some people's eyes, but the speed isn't the issue here it is the freedom to "JUST get on with it".My guess is that your AFB draw is done, by "just getting on with it". I want my draw to happen with ease, almost total freedom to get from A to B.
Let me clarify that a little. Imagine you are going to hang a picture from a nail in the wall. The nail goes in about 6" above head height. You hold the nail at the right place and tap in gently to get it started. If you mime this, you will see the elbow opens up as the hammer moves towards the wall. The hammer head swings in an arc. The hand holding the shaft also moves in an arc. It is a pivot on the elbow swing,yes? If you now change to hammering a bit harder, you will notice the elbow not only opens but moves downwards as the shoulder joint joins in and moves the upper arm . The upper arm is moving in a swinging manner pivoting at the shoulder.
All of that happens, even if you close your eyes. The movement is free and relaxed, and yet the control is there; good enough to hit a nail with a small hammer head time after time. Now, slow all that right down to slo mo speed and knock in the nail!!!!
Did you notice while you were hammering in the nail, which muscles you used? I guess you could tell me the answer, now. But what about during the hammering? I think your recurve draw could be over cautious. You are thinking of the muscles, and yet it is the bones that have to move to get the draw working.
So, use your recurve as a barebow,no extras on it, and draw it with ease. Shoot some arrows from it at short and easy range, no worries of missing the boss. Where in the boss is of no consequence it is that freedom you are wanting.
The drawing of your bow will change once you get past that novelty of shooting it like the AFB.
Once you feel your draw is relaxing and speeding up, you can try a little change.
Part of my shot cycle is to nock the arrow and fit my hand into the grip and onto the string. You might expect me to raise the bow next, right?
Well, actually I raise my arms. Remember I said I wanted my draw to go from A to B. Well, A is where my hands/arms are at the start of the draw, and B is where they are at the point where the string and draw hand contact my face. The bow plays second fiddle in all of this, it just gets its string pulled. It has no choice in the matter.
If I want the journey from A to B to be relaxed and controlled, the starting position of the arms is a vital ingredient. If I want to reach B with a minimum of fuss and a minimum of delay, then the position of A is , once again,a vital ingredient. It is the settling of the arms at the start of the draw that is deliberate, and I can take my time getting that right. When you were miming the knocking in of the nail; the positioning of the arms was vital. You may have imagined where the hammer was before you started hammering, but ultimately it was the arms that were preparing for the swinging; and positioning themselves almost without any thought on your part. If you ever had to hammer a nail while in a confined space, you will know just how a natural swing becomes cramped by having to adopt a different one.
That's quite a lot to take in, so I will stop and you can, if you wish, let me know how you feel about it all and ask some questions if there are any.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A nice clear explanation, I can almost imagine what you do.
The problem here is that word "controlled". That can mean, very stiff and almost nervous in case it deviates from the intended route. Like trying to control a naughty child who is just waiting to do something naughty.
I see "controlled" as something different from that. Controlled, in my view, is no more than Happening the way I want it to happen. My draw looks rushed, to some people's eyes, but the speed isn't the issue here it is the freedom to "JUST get on with it".My guess is that your AFB draw is done, by "just getting on with it". I want my draw to happen with ease, almost total freedom to get from A to B.
Let me clarify that a little. Imagine you are going to hang a picture from a nail in the wall. The nail goes in about 6" above head height. You hold the nail at the right place and tap in gently to get it started. If you mime this, you will see the elbow opens up as the hammer moves towards the wall. The hammer head swings in an arc. The hand holding the shaft also moves in an arc. It is a pivot on the elbow swing,yes? If you now change to hammering a bit harder, you will notice the elbow not only opens but moves downwards as the shoulder joint joins in and moves the upper arm . The upper arm is moving in a swinging manner pivoting at the shoulder.
All of that happens, even if you close your eyes. The movement is free and relaxed, and yet the control is there; good enough to hit a nail with a small hammer head time after time. Now, slow all that right down to slo mo speed and knock in the nail!!!!
Did you notice while you were hammering in the nail, which muscles you used? I guess you could tell me the answer, now. But what about during the hammering? I think your recurve draw could be over cautious. You are thinking of the muscles, and yet it is the bones that have to move to get the draw working.
So, use your recurve as a barebow,no extras on it, and draw it with ease. Shoot some arrows from it at short and easy range, no worries of missing the boss. Where in the boss is of no consequence it is that freedom you are wanting.
The drawing of your bow will change once you get past that novelty of shooting it like the AFB.
Once you feel your draw is relaxing and speeding up, you can try a little change.
Part of my shot cycle is to nock the arrow and fit my hand into the grip and onto the string. You might expect me to raise the bow next, right?
Well, actually I raise my arms. Remember I said I wanted my draw to go from A to B. Well, A is where my hands/arms are at the start of the draw, and B is where they are at the point where the string and draw hand contact my face. The bow plays second fiddle in all of this, it just gets its string pulled. It has no choice in the matter.
If I want the journey from A to B to be relaxed and controlled, the starting position of the arms is a vital ingredient. If I want to reach B with a minimum of fuss and a minimum of delay, then the position of A is , once again,a vital ingredient. It is the settling of the arms at the start of the draw that is deliberate, and I can take my time getting that right. When you were miming the knocking in of the nail; the positioning of the arms was vital. You may have imagined where the hammer was before you started hammering, but ultimately it was the arms that were preparing for the swinging; and positioning themselves almost without any thought on your part. If you ever had to hammer a nail while in a confined space, you will know just how a natural swing becomes cramped by having to adopt a different one.
That's quite a lot to take in, so I will stop and you can, if you wish, let me know how you feel about it all and ask some questions if there are any.
 
Well today I was coaching on a beginners course at my club but I took along my AFB and my recurve. Whilst the beginners were having a tea break I shot a few ends with my AFB and then set-up my recurve as barebow. I only had time to shoot a couple of ends so not a conclusive test but I found that I could comfortably draw and shoot my recurve without seeming to tire. By comparison last weekend shooting with all my stablisers etc I would struggle after the 3rd arrow and by the 6th I'd struggle to draw through the clicker. The only thing I noticed, I had someone spot me, was that I was drawing my arrows initially about 1/4" short (too long) of where my clicker would be. I then asked my spotter to tell me when I had drawn the arrow back past where my clicker would have been. I found this perfectly comfortable and think that once I've become accustomed to shooting my recurve as a barebow and it starts to feel more natural, that I'll be able to draw that length without any problems.

So I think you hit the nail on the head and that the draw weight isn't a problem, it the bow weight.

Interestingly I had a go shooting a 45lb AFB (I normally shoot a 35lb AFB) and found that whilst I could just about draw it, there was no way I could shoot 72+ arrows with it. I could feel I was over bowed but more importantly that feeling was very different to how my recurve was feeling last weekend, again confirming that the draw weight is fine and that I just need to build up strength in my bow arm.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
1/4" short of the clicker is no bad thing. If you can comfortably draw past where the clicker would be, then that is also a good sign.
You have mentioned how slow and controlled your recurve draw was when you started this thread. If you can draw so well, as if it is a AFB, then all that slowness and care may have been working against you. Drawing slowly can rob us of confidence. Getting on briskly , but not rushing can be a a confidence booster. Your 1/4" margin is enough to keep you safe from the clicker going off too soon. Draw well to your face and draw some more and off it goes. You should have no need to wonder when it will go off, IT WILL if you keep up that drawing form.
If it doesn't go.... you have stopped pulling!! You have changed form;from good form to timid.
I would get just the long rod on your bow and keep it light for now, until you get consistently good results.
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
Oh and the only other thing I do on the AFB is that I tilt it very slightly to the right to help hold the arrow on the shelf but as I'm getting more and more used to it I'm tilting it only very slightly now.
Nothing wrong with tilting a bow, unless it has sights on it.
I'd suggest sticking to the AFB and trying field without any holding at full draw. Just anchor, and, loose. (the and is a count of one).
Also try shooting left handed with an longbow or some such, that will help even out your musculature, posture etc. It will be devilishly hard at first but you'll soon settle into it (just at say 10 yards, as an exercise).
Little and often with the exercise.
Anyhow good luck...
Del
 
1/4" short of the clicker is no bad thing. If you can comfortably draw past where the clicker would be, then that is also a good sign.
You have mentioned how slow and controlled your recurve draw was when you started this thread. If you can draw so well, as if it is a AFB, then all that slowness and care may have been working against you. Drawing slowly can rob us of confidence. Getting on briskly , but not rushing can be a a confidence booster. Your 1/4" margin is enough to keep you safe from the clicker going off too soon. Draw well to your face and draw some more and off it goes. You should have no need to wonder when it will go off, IT WILL if you keep up that drawing form.
If it doesn't go.... you have stopped pulling!! You have changed form;from good form to timid.
I would get just the long rod on your bow and keep it light for now, until you get consistently good results.
Yeah I think timid is a contributing factor. I think I've had a certain amount of fear and trepidation. My back has caused me so many problems the last two years that I've been worried about doing anything to aggravate it. Unfortunately this all happened just after I bought myself a new bow and I struggled a bit in getting used to have that felt and shot. Although I'm more comfortable with my (now not so new) new bow, I'm still not as comfortable with it as I was with my old one but that's because I just didn't get the chance to shoot with it enough before my back went.

Shooting it barebow was an interesting experiment. It felt very different due to the different anchor position and although the arrows were going all over the shop, it also felt great shooting it and I wasn't thinking about drawing, just shooting. The only thing I need to do is to adjust the arrow rest or replace it as keeping arrows on it without a clicker during the draw was proving fairly challenging.

I'm confident now that if I can just build up the strength in my bow arm, it will all come together.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
You said it yourself ' the recurve is slower' so your form is not the same. remember form is not just where you end up , it's how you get there as well. I think that you could also be drawing with your arm and not your shoulder and you maybe be leaning back from the waist causing a downward angle on the bow arm.
 
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