When does coaching become coaching

Dave Baron

New member
As a club we are blessed to have a number of coaches at all levels from level 1 through to senior coach. We are also lucky to have a couple of senior members who in their heyday competed at the top levels of our sport and who have decided, for various reasons, not to become accredited coaches. They are happy to dispense the benefit of their years of experience, often without being asked, and sometimes with demonstrations, and we are grateful to receive it. So my question is, at what point does this cross the line from being friendly advice and become coaching? Where would we stand with the insurance if this resulted in a claim, and would the outcome be any different if there was a coach present at that time? All the above assume that the "coaching" activity is not part of any organised coaching event nor sanctioned by the club or senior coach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

BillM

Member
There is a thing called "The Goods & Services Act" which is there to ensure that those providing a service such as legal, medical and the like have the appropriate qualification. 'Coach' falls into that category which is why some of us (at some time, although not now) gained that qualification. It mainly applies if a 'service' is offered for a remuneration which then gives some comeback if anything goes wrong. Coaches are covered by AGB insurance (but not if a child protection issue arises) and we were encouraged to take out additional cover in case of mishap. Where the experienced archer is concerned, it would be foolish not to listen to what they have to say and offer but in all cases be prepared to make up your own mind.

BillM
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
What sort of claim do you envisage?
Coaching does not need to be from someone "qualified". And no one has to heed either the qualified coach or the experienced archer. Every archer having completed a beginners' course is responsible for their own shooting.
In my experience there are some extremely good coaches not clutching a bit of paper.

Sounds like you have been annoyed by one. What caused this?
 

Dave Baron

New member
What sort of claim do you envisage?
Coaching does not need to be from someone "qualified". And no one has to heed either the qualified coach or the experienced archer. Every archer having completed a beginners' course is responsible for their own shooting.
In my experience there are some extremely good coaches not clutching a bit of paper.

Sounds like you have been annoyed by one. What caused this?
You are absolutely right, there are some great coaches who don't have, or need, a piece of paper to prove it. Concerns were raised that the way Archery GB recommend to do some things have changed, largely due to health and safety, measuring a complete beginner for safe arrow length for example. The concern was where we as a club stand if an accident were to occur due to "outdated" practice taught by an "unqualified coach".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
The thing is, there have been *no* claims in recent history, against AGB's insurance. So while practices might be considered outdated, they didn't lead to accidents. The measuring arrows thing is more about not recommending the correct length before the happy newbie totters off to their local shop, thereby wasting money. And measured by any person is better than not measured at all and a newbie getting carried away on ebay. If in any doubt, leave it to your local proshop...

All these things need to be looked at with a huge dose of common sense, and all H&S carries the caveat of common sense, what is reasonable and what is practicable.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I thought the danger with the method ofmeasuring was the issue, when the arrow was placed against the beginner's throat and they held the other end between their outstretched hands. I remember being told that the end placed against the throat should be moved down onto the sternum.
 

Dave Baron

New member
There must have been a level of concern before changing any practice, regardless of wither that resulted from an incident or not. Whilst we really hope that there never is an incident, should there unfortunately be one, the first thing that the insurers ( or even Archery GB) will ask is if proper procedures were being followed. If not I can guarantee they won't pay out ( as a min). I applaud your argument that all archers are responsible for their archery, but in this day and age, when it comes to admitting fault, an awful lot of people look for someone else to blame, and we just want to make sure that the phrase " should have known better" can't be levelled at the club or one of its committee at the inevitable investigation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Just to clarify a bit here... Technically a coach could bring in any expertise he wanted, in coaching. So a coach could say to one of your experienced archers "hey come over and show him this"...
So, technically, so long as at least one of the coaches in the club approves of what is being done, there should not be any problems. That's my understanding at least. Anything else would force them to only use accredited coach resources, which would be unworkable.
 

Dave Baron

New member
Just to clarify a bit here... Technically a coach could bring in any expertise he wanted, in coaching. So a coach could say to one of your experienced archers "hey come over and show him this"...
So, technically, so long as at least one of the coaches in the club approves of what is being done, there should not be any problems. That's my understanding at least. Anything else would force them to only use accredited coach resources, which would be unworkable.
I agree completely that under the supervision of a qualified coach this would be fine, but our issue is when it's outside those parameters and not sanctioned by a coach or even in the absence of one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
I agree completely that under the supervision of a qualified coach this would be fine, but our issue is when it's outside those parameters and not sanctioned by a coach or even in the absence of one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Surely an unqualified coach is not working for gain at the behest of the club, so the individual giving the advice would be the liable party if the unlikely event of something going wrong were to occur, not the club.
Infact a qualified coach isnt necessarily working for or on behalf of the club, so where is the club's liability then?
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Has AGB informed your club, or any other, that non-AGB qualified coaches *must not* coach during one of your club's official sessions? They definitely accept that experienced archers are capable, and often required to help run beginners sessions. I've tried to find that statement on AGB's tortuous website and of course having found it once I can't track it down again.
If you are concerned about possible refusal of insurance, you are better off getting it from the horse's mouth, and talk to AGB.
 

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
If we're talking liability, then it's hard to see how a club could be held responsible for something they did not arrange...
On the other hand, a coach or even an experienced archer could be held liable, if they were to witness something potentially damaging and not step in to prevent it.

But of course, nothing in an analysis of whether liability should apply, would prevent an individual suing whomsoever they liked, at any time. You can't do anything about that...
 

Corax67

Well-known member
For what it is worth I feel that if the person you have concerns about, the "unqualified" member, is on the line and discussing matters of form and technique with another archer - be they experienced or inexperienced - then they are not coaching, they are conversing.

Only a club recognised coach would be deemed to be 'coaching' since they will have a specific individual or small group under their direct supervision and sphere of control as part of the organised club session.

Our club is much like your club, we have a set of specific coaches holding relevant paperwork who instruct on our 'short' line on a club day. This is where our beginners and those seeking to improve or remedy their form all shoot. This is also where our club tech is situated for all matters of equipment adjustment or archer measurement, etc.

Amidst the other club members shooting on our 'long' line we have a broad range of experience level in all the bow styles and conversations are always ongoing between archers - either from people seeking advice or if someone spots obvious/glaring issues that may easily be rectified without recourse to the "qualified" coaches. Target groups will be constantly helping each other by spotting arrows, looking for things like front arm drop or draw issues, listening out for odd sounds from equipment (or archers).

As we all observe safe shooting practice - having a designated field captain, shooting to a whistle and no bows being drawn off the line, et al - then there should be absolutely no opportunity for a potentially dangerous or litigious incident to occur.


I don't mean to be rude but is this a case of finding a reason to sanction someone without a bit of paper who might be stepping on the toes of someone with a bit of paper? If there is extra help available then why not accept it & if you feel such help or advice is "outdated" then take the opportunity to upskill that person and thereby deepen the pool of willing talent you hold.




Karl
 

Timid Toad

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
Interesting point, there Karl - experienced archers are a resource that many clubs couldn't do without. On the other hand most L1 coaches, and a few L2s that I know tend to be relatively inexperienced as archers themselves. That's not their fault, and it doesn't make them bad coaches, but with the best will in the world, depth of experience can be lacking.

No archer of any qualification or ability is going to offer advice to endanger or harm the performance of anyone else. It's not a sinister thing.

I know coaches can feel offended as if someone is stepping on their toes, but if archers are looking for help then they will often seek out those they trust.

If someone in your club is actually doing something dangerous or breaking club rules, they need to be approached asap, no matter who they are. Otherwise, they should be seen as a boon to qualified coaches, taking the load off, when most coaches worth their paperwork are over worked.

It should be noted that even at Lilleshall, people with international shooting experience under their belt are commonly sharing their experience and advice.
 

backinblack

Active member
Surely an unqualified coach is not working for gain at the behest of the club, so the individual giving the advice would be the liable party if the unlikely event of something going wrong were to occur, not the club.
Infact a qualified coach isnt necessarily working for or on behalf of the club, so where is the club's liability then?
My understanding is that, in the case of organisations such as sports clubs, liability is joint and several: if the insurers don't pay up then the ambulance chasers can go after any and all of the club members. In practice this means that they will go after all of them because there's no point in having a judgment against someone who doesn't have the means to pay, so the net will be cast as wide as possible.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
What a sad world we would live in when one one archer cannot help another archer without a piece of paper allowing them to do so for fear of litigation - perhaps I will have to look the other way in future when somebody is struggling and not enjoying their archery and the coaches are waiting to be asked by the archer for help because that is the so called proper procedure. - I don't think so.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
What a sad world we would live in when one one archer cannot help another archer without a piece of paper allowing them to do so for fear of litigation - perhaps I will have to look the other way in future when somebody is struggling and not enjoying their archery and the coaches are waiting to be asked by the archer for help because that is the so called proper procedure. - I don't think so.
I agree with you.
I do think though, that the actions you describe are not likely to be the things that are at risk of being stopped.
What we do for others as friends is what allows us to make and stay friends, and I don't see that ending any time soon.
I believe there are some actions that are risky and can be replaced by safer options. Knowing about these can make things safer for all.
I remember a discussion on my coach training course regarding the coach waiting to be asked for help rather than offering.
We were told that blundering in when not required was one thing; but seeing someone struggling could be difficult to ignore. The suggestion was that we just wait a chance to ask how they were getting on. Then let their response guide your decision to step in or step back.
 
Top