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Thread: thinking of border

  1. #37
    It's an X BorderBows's Avatar
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    Hi there BackInBlack.

    several issues need addressing here

    If we put tiller into our limbs, then we will have a difference in tiller to a set of limbs that don't have tiller in them.
    For example. if you have a limbs with equal tiller, you will need to adjust them on the riser to give the usual 3-4mm of tiller.
    if you then put limbs in which have tiller built in, then those bolt positions wont work for those limbs. tiller will need adjusted.

    let me see if I can explain some of the "bullshT" you feel you have received.
    the static measurement you receive, at BH is a proportion of the difference in strength, based on the preload.
    if you start with the limbs position forward of the riser, unbraced. and measure the distance the limb tips are forward of the grip, you will notice would out is less than wound in.
    the same goes for BH changes. both these change preload. preload being the distance the limb travels to get to BH.
    the more preload you add, for any set amount of tiller. the tiller will manifest itself as more in the way we measure it.

    for example. taking the BH from 6" to 9" will increase the tiller you measure without changing the bolt positions OR limbs.
    or maintaining the same BH, but winding the limbs bolts equal number of turns, tiller will increase.

    so, the next one that is one you can play with, the tiller measurement you get with say 1 full turn will be different with a long limb than it will be a short limb.

    now, what classifies a long limb to a short limb, on a recurve is very different to a long bow. as at BH the limbs length is dictated by the fadeout to string groove in basic terms.
    I wouldn't expect the same length of fadeout to string groove at BH to the same between brands. so don't expect tiller to be the same between risers, because it changes based on preload levels, as well as limb length at BH.

    you can check this out for yourself by playing with kit down the club.

    im not playing any tricks here, Your Uuhka riser, is not the same as your Tempest. same as your border limbs are not the same as your Uuhka limbs. so don't expect the same answers.


    As for the alignment issues.

    if you read what ive always said. we expect a straight bow, and don't beleave you should have to use the lateral adjustment to get a straight bow.
    that in short says if you have a alignment problem, ie, straight isn't straight. We accept that responsibility and do not think it acceptable for you to have to sit with it.


    that statement, is a statement we live by. we are here to support you.

    if you wish to continue this conversation, please contact me at Sales@borderbows.com and I will lay out the reasons and rationals by way of photographs and demonstrations for the tiller questions you have
    Find us on Facebook: "Border Archery"





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  3. #38
    It's an X backinblack's Avatar
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    Sid,

    I'm sorry but I need to respond to this on-line. I'll also contact you by email, so here goes:

    What I do know is that you know far more about making bows than I ever will, but I'm not sure that what you have written addresses my issue - though admittedly that may be due to my ignorance.

    In order to set the tiller on a bow, I bottom out both limb bolts, wind them out a similar number of turns to give the desired draw weight with around a quarter of a turn difference (the lower one wound further in) to give me a tiller of 2mm or so. I've never read anything anywhere, including information put out by Border, to indicate that the process is more complicated than this and it has worked with every other bow I've ever shot.

    If I do the above with my Tempest and Upro risers, when I swap the VX 1000 limbs between the two, whilst not identical, there is no significant difference in the static tiller of the limbs. The Uukha limbs do have a built in tiller. I'm assuming that the built in tiller is not an issue here as both sets of Hex 7.5s that I tried (which I understand have built in tiller) gave the same strange results, albeit to a greater degree - about one inch of negative tiller with the limb bolts on the Tempest positioned in the way I described in the paragraph above.

    I can accept that I am not going get identical results swapping between limbs made by different manufacturers and that altering the limb bolt position and bracing height both affect tiller, but I can't understand why a set of limbs that have no built in tiller and are set within the normal working bracing height range require such differing limb bolt settings, even on the riser they are designed for.

    For me there is no logic to what you are saying: if the limbs are tillered evenly which is the case with the CVX I believe, then with the limb bolts wound out the same amount there should be even tiller. If I swap them into the riser with a quarter turn extra on the lower limb bolt, they should have some positive tiller but less than with limbs that have the tiller built in. If the riser has different geometry, the bracing height ought to change but the tiller should stay roughly the same as the limbs are identical. Based on this, I can't work out why I end up with 5mm negative tiller on the Tempest riser and around twice this on the Upro riser. This is the inverse of what I would expect.

    I further thing I can't get my head around is why, now you make your own risers, you don't tiller the limbs in such a way as to allow access to the full draw weight adjustment range on your own risers because, if I need to start with one bolt wound in to take out the 5mm negative tiller before I set the draw weight, then the tuning range for the bow as a whole is reduced accordingly and practically eliminated on the Upro riser and presumably with non-Border risers of similar geometry.

    If there is some knack or magic to setting up a Border bow that is not required for those of other manufacturers, then it would be helpful if you were to make this information available so that customers who simply want to put together a bow and shoot it are able to do so in the same way as with any other bow or at least know what to expect in terms of setting one up. I know there is some information available on the Tempest, but there is no up to date information on the latest limb offerings other than what can be gleaned from various on-line forums. Do you not feel that doing this would go some way towards making your own lives easier in terms of less customer dissatisfaction and more bows out the door?

    As I said above, my conclusions may be based on my own ignorance. If that is the case then I apologise, however, if you are able to explain the issues I've raised then I'd be very grateful.

  4. #39
    It's an X BorderBows's Avatar
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    Backinblack. Before i read the rest. A quick note about a quirk that is sometimes possible with the tempest setup.
    With the lock screw being captive inside the riser. We have had one person struggle. What felt like the limb bolt bottoming out. Was infact a very unwound lock bolt bottom out. Meaning the user hasnt found a fully in position.
    So make sure its not unwound tooo far. So that you are finding the tiller bolt bottom and not a fake bottom of the lock bolt hitting bottom.

    Ill get back to reading your reply now

  5. #40
    It's an X I've taken part in an AIUK Ironman Shoot.The Fonz Award.AIUK subscriber. Timid Toad's Avatar
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    Interestingly, I have always found tiller to be a function not only of bolt position, but also brace height. So if I set my bolts, string and measure, then either raise or lower the brace height, the tiller will have changed. Sometimes a surprising amount. This for me is about finding the sweet spot. I'm looking for the same amount of string groove showing top and bottom, *and* a tiller in the 2-3mm zone *and* a brace height within manufacturer's recommendations.
    So getting one of those wrong will mess up all the rest. And it makes sense. All manufacturers make limbs to work correctly within specific ranges. There is some leeway, as risers differ, but it's just not as simple as setting the bolts even and walking away.
    "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." Douglas Adams

  6. #41
    It's an X I've taken part in an AIUK Ironman Shoot.The Fonz Award.AIUK subscriber. Timid Toad's Avatar
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    Very sorry Dottorfoggy to have derailed your post. Perhaps we should try to move it to a new thread?
    "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." Douglas Adams

  7. #42
    In the Blue dottorfoggy's Avatar
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    don't worry

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