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KidCurry

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Many times I have been asked for a book on instinctive archery.
Everybody aims even if they think they don't - you even aim when you throw or kick a ball, frisbee or play golf.
Aiming... now that's a thread I can get interested in :)
 

geoffretired

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KidCurry
Whitehart,
Yes, indeed. Semantics; and aiming when throwing a ball.
The idea of aiming when throwing a ball etc, does seem a little strange, as there is no sight and nothing to point with, in an aiming sense.
I think that once you start the forward swing of the arm, you could almost close your eyes and throw with much the same degree of success.
The whole body has learned, from trial and improve, what needs to be done. We started learning at such an early age that we can't fully remember the learning stage. With enough practice we can adjust for a lighter or heavier stone. I very much doubt that we know how we do it. We can show an archer how to use a sight and they can pick it up very quickly. It is not so easy to explain the stone throwing aim, as we aren't that sure how it is done.
I'm going to say that " Instinctive" however you define it, is really gap shooting( gap aiming) without being too aware of how big the gap is that is being used at the time.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Forms of aiming in archery:
1. Aiming with the sight pin
2. Aiming with arrow or other bow/body part
3. Aiming with body alignment alone
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
Hi Geoff I think you need your eyes open to throw a ball more accurately the special awareness helps the subconscious mind to calculate direction and how hard to throw the ball. When you stare stare at what you are trying to hit you stand a better chance of hitting it. i.e. coconut shy

I was also going to add we also aim when we drive a car run or walk down a road. So in effect the subconscious mind is used to aiming all the time but it is learnt from experience, that is why archers find using a sight difficult and give it far too much of a priority in the shot cycle by over aiming at first because the conscious brain is trying to take over.
 

geoffretired

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Hi KidCurry, I think that so long as the thrower has positioned the body and back swing first with eyes open, the rest will follow properly. I agree that with eyes open all the time allows late/fine tuning changes to be made.
It's a bit like blind shooting, If the archer is used to establishing the bow arm in a position that doesn't move much throughout the draw; they can set the bow arm with eyes open, then close then draw, and release and get groups. A lot of throwing is partly directed by the positioning of the other arm, sort of pointing in the right direction. javelin throwers do this. To some extent high jumpers too. The arm that first goes over the bar is like a gauge of how to follow with the rest of the body.
 
D

Deleted member 7654

Guest
Need to define terms first!
"Aim" is too loose... we all "aim" to live to old age.
"Alignment" is probably a better word, and then, do we align things consciously or subconsciously?
E.G if you throw a ball of paper over your shoulder hoping to get it in the bin your "aim" is to get it in the bin. You are trying to align the swing of your arm to your mental model of the rooms geometry, but you are not actually aligning any physical reference points.
When you turn and face the bin, you may be lining up reference points eye, bin and starting position of the ball (or maybe first finger of other hand).
Del
 

KidCurry

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"Alignment" is probably a better word, and then, do we align things consciously or subconsciously?
The problem with 'alignment' is it is already used to as a term for correct physical geometric form with or without a target. Aiming is the process of both consciously and subconsciously bringing that alignment to bare on a target.
To hit a target repeatably and accurately it is important to aim. How you aim is probably far more important. It is also why top compound archers take longer to aim than top recurve. The aiming outcomes are different.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
Hi Del, I like your thinking.
Perhaps we should use the word "aiming" and put another word in front of it depending on what we are aiming with; or what method we are using.
For example,aim with a single sight, aim with a gap.
There is posture aiming... I guess.
Consciously or unconsciously is a bit tricky. I think back to watching our children learning to throw a ball when they were really young. They tend to let go too late and the ball goes behind them,heeheeh. Only by getting it wrong do they find out how to get it right. I very much doubt that any words run through their minds during this learning. Or any decisions about how to get better.
Adults think to "aim" higher if they want the missile to go further. Or throw harder.
I agree with KidCurry that a sight can be given too much priority in the shot process. I feel it is natural to believe the sight is all important. They are added to bows almost without thinking, as if they are part of archery; can't shoot without one, can I?
They need to be explained. They need to be put in context.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
What constitutes a fake follow through? Is fake or just poor (as in not conforming to current thinking)?

I've been working on my release during the lockdown and from watching the video replays my release will (mostly) go toward my ear (doesn’t always go the same route but it’s work in progress). It doesn’t travel as far as a top archers appear to do but I think that’s due to my body not being able to. My bow hand doesn’t do much. I’ve tried dropping the hand to let the bow swing but not really sure why I should. I know I’m not grabbing the bow as I release so why do I need all this swinging?

I have seen archers whose bow arm really swings to the side on release and thought “don’t want him on the line beside me”.
The first inch of movement during and after the string is released is the important bit everything after that is window dressing.
 
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KidCurry

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I feel it is natural to believe the sight is all important. They are added to bows almost without thinking, as if they are part of archery; can't shoot without one, can I?
When I shot compound the arrow almost always went where the sight pin was indicating on release. If the sight pin drifted out of the 10 the impact would be outside the 10. Now I shoot barebow and I am often amazed that I can be aiming in the red and the arrow still goes in the gold. Something that would never happen with compound.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
KidCurry, I understand what you are saying and there must be times when that is exactly what we want to happen. Sight on the x arrow in the x.
BUT for many archers, the sight can be on the x and the arrows is a blue. or red. or 9 not 10.
The sight position is only part of what is required. The other parts need to be just as well placed; but if the only focus to the shot is the sight, the other parts don't get any attention so they stay "variable."
I can appreciate that when really good archers shoot, if the sight isn't in the middle the arrow won't be either. They have to get the sight in the middle and keep their form together. BUT it seems they know how that can be done.
Over aiming is as bad as under aiming. Over aiming damages what might otherwise be better form. Under aiming doesn't get the best out of what might otherwise be very good form.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I forgot to say that the sight in the gold can often be reached using the bow hand to manipulate the sight into position on the target at the expense of the upper body alignment.
I hear people say tilt at the waist to shoot further; moving the sight as they tilt. Do we hear archers being advised to turn at the waist to adjust left/right aiming? Or do archers just move the bow arm?
 

dvd8n

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I'm going to say that " Instinctive" however you define it, is really gap shooting( gap aiming) without being too aware of how big the gap is that is being used at the time.
I totally agree with this. I normally gap shoot, but sometimes on the field course I just can't be bothered and shoot instinctive instead. Of course there's nothing instinctive about it at all; I'm fully aware that I'm just not bothering to estimate the distance accurately, I'm just seat-of-the-pants-ing the gap that I need.

The results are surprisingly good, but not as good as gap shooting, especially at long distances.
 

geoffretired

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Heehee
I totally agree with what I wrote ,too.
At least so far; perhaps someone will add a post that changes my thinking.
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
I forgot to say that the sight in the gold can often be reached using the bow hand to manipulate the sight into position on the target at the expense of the upper body alignment.
I hear people say tilt at the waist to shoot further; moving the sight as they tilt. Do we hear archers being advised to turn at the waist to adjust left/right aiming? Or do archers just move the bow arm?
If you have to make left /right adjustments then your alignment and feet position are wrong - target archery
 

Geophys2

Active member
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If you have to make left /right adjustments then your alignment and feet position are wrong - target archery
I was a member of and then coached the GB Rifle team for more than 20 years. One thing we always insisted on, particularly in the standing position, was that before starting to actually shoot that you came on aim, and then closed your eyes, on reopening you should still be on aim. If it was high or low then the balance of the rifle needed altering (think stabiliser weight placement), left or right usually foot position. If you didn't do these checks then the rifle would tend to move towards the natural point of aim on firing. I naturally carried this check over to archery.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
We do blind drawing in coaching sessions. Settle your stance/posture raise the arms to starting position at about eye level, close eyes and draw to the "aiming" posture.Open eyes. See where the sight has settled. Adjust foot positions for left right adjust starting position elevation for up/down.
 

malbro

Instinctive Archer
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I think the term Instinctive comes from two misunderstandings. One is not understanding "instinctive" in the way that it is something we are born with. The other is misunderstanding how they actually shoot, forgetting the learning that went on to get even part way good at it.
Dictionary definition of instinctive
relating to or prompted by instinct; done without conscious thought.
I believe instinctive archers are using the latter part of that definition, of course we all aim we just dont use sights, we use our eyes and the clues that the sight picture provides. I didn't shoot well 'instinctively' when I started but I have improved with practice, and the more I practice the better I get at judging distances, I don't conciously think about the shot, I concentrate on the target and let my subconcious do the job, just as I do when I drive.
 

geoffretired

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Hi Malbro. Yes I see that. What I was getting at was how different archers use the different parts of the definition leading to disagreements between those using the latter part and those using the former part. Specially when each doesn't know which part the other is using.
 
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