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KidCurry

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Interesting, almost as if you are avoiding thinking in words... without having to deliberately get to that stage??.
I would deliberately avoid having a conversation with myself or any thought process that required any attention, although it often happens in practice as I'm sure it must with most archers. Even low levels of pain could be ignored.
Starting to shoot barebow was like starting from the beginning again, in terms of form. I have now managed to get things down to thinking about one aspect of the shot rather than everything at the same time, but getting to where I was with compound I'm not sure will happen. I don't think I have enough shooting in me to do it again.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A very interesting post. All sorts of things in there to ponder over.
I wasn't really thinking of conversations. I find that keeping words out of the mind is very difficult. I guess that I could shoot without words if I chose to "just shoot". For example, I can throw stones into a pond for no reason other than something to do, and I will just throw stone anyhow any where. If I want to skim stones across a pond, things immediately change. Words pop in; I choose the stones carefully, I adopt a particular posture and the key aspects are mentioned to myself. They are not words in the out loud sense.
With archery I wonder of there isn't an idea we can latch onto to prevent distracting words from filling the empty space.
 

KidCurry

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When I say 'conversation' I don't mean it in the literal sense. An example would be when I was training to use a release aid. During training I would think the process through, ie wait until the shot picture was right then think to myself 'now execute the release process'. After months and months the sight picture would begin to be the mechanism for initiating the release process and not a thought process. It is not that I am not talking to myself, it is that I am not even thinking of the shot process. The arrow is gone with no conscious awareness that I was even ready for it to be released until the arrow passed through my vision you snapped back to reality.
It isn't just small things like the shot execution. The bow weight was 60lb but there was was no sense of a conscious effort of even drawing the bow, no weight at all. If I stopped for a couple of weeks it would take me weeks to get back to that.
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
That is making a lot of sense. One of the things I find with the details of shooting form and specially compounds with release aids, is that the end results are explained but the processes to reach that stage are not often clear.
A release aid user with the first few shots will get a surprise; because they have no way of knowing what to expect. Later they may slip into anticipation as a defence against the surprise. The surprise itself can feel so wrong.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
Suprise feels very wrong to me.It is a loss of control you can't be certain that the pin will be in the middle when the release happens especially on a windy day outdoors .
 

KidCurry

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Suprise feels very wrong to me.It is a loss of control you can't be certain that the pin will be in the middle when the release happens especially on a windy day outdoors .
I think Geoff might be referring to the first few shots. I brake the compound learning process down into three stages:
1. Shots 1-3 are the 'Holy crap I'm going to kill someone with this thing'.
2. Shots 4-20,000 is the fight for control and rock solid aim.
3. Shots 20,001 - on, release of control and subconscious shooting.
I think many don't get past stage two for their entire shoot career and get stuck around the high MB region.
 

4d4m

Active member
Suprise feels very wrong to me.It is a loss of control you can't be certain that the pin will be in the middle when the release happens especially on a windy day outdoors .
"Surprise break" is a technique from pistol shooting, along with "area aim". The rationale is it is impossible to hold still on a perfect sight picture centred on the bull. Waiting for that before consciously breaking the trigger ("now!") leads to "snatching" with poor results, i.e you pull the pistol off aim during the trigger break.

So the idea is you get the sights lined up in the area of the target (this area might for novices be anywhere on the paper, for more experienced shooters it will be smaller). When within the area you take up the first stage weight. As the sight picture moves towards the bull you increase the pressure on the trigger, as it passes the bull you gently reduce the pressure. The aim will wobble around the middle and at some point the gun will fire as a "surprise". Improvement with practice centres around reducing the size of the "aim area" rather than expecting a perfect sight picture timed to coincide with a perfect break.
 

geoffretired

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Supporter
This aspect of the execution is really fascinating. It is so easy to use one word and get three different archers getting three different messages from it.
Surprise!
No surprise to any compound archer, when a brand new archer tries a compound and jumps at the release! It is almost bound to happen; what can prepare anyone for such a shock?
There is an interesting difference between Jerry's surprise which he says is out of control; and my thinking, that the surprise is exactly what I want, so I am in control. Well,...... I am in control when I let the surprise take place as I should. Sometimes, I try to speed it along a little and think about getting the shot to go. It does go........ but not the way I had planned. I wasn't supposed to try to get the shot to go.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
This aspect of the execution is really fascinating. It is so easy to use one word and get three different archers getting three different messages from it.
Surprise!
No surprise to any compound archer, when a brand new archer tries a compound and jumps at the release! It is almost bound to happen; what can prepare anyone for such a shock?
There is an interesting difference between Jerry's surprise which he says is out of control; and my thinking, that the surprise is exactly what I want, so I am in control. Well,...... I am in control when I let the surprise take place as I should. Sometimes, I try to speed it along a little and think about getting the shot to go. It does go........ but not the way I had planned. I wasn't supposed to try to get the shot to go.
I take steps to deal with the 'jump' we only do beginners compound in doors, (Controlled environment the arrow will be contained in the building,) We shoot the back stop to show the archer that if he misses the boss nothing drastic or dangerous will happen. The club compound is slow with a soft cam and a wrist release is used because most people have shot a rifle of some sort so a finger trigger is more familiar and you can't let go of the wrist release . I find the usual reaction is wow and reach for another arrow
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I find the usual reaction is wow and reach for another arrow
Yes, indeed! the smile says it all. Sometimes that is worth capturing and trying to keep that excitement over the years in shooting. Sometimes there is less surprise because there was some anticipation. Can be really damaging.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
"Surprise break" is a technique from pistol shooting, along with "area aim". The rationale is it is impossible to hold still on a perfect sight picture centred on the bull. Waiting for that before consciously breaking the trigger ("now!") leads to "snatching" with poor results, i.e you pull the pistol off aim during the trigger break.

So the idea is you get the sights lined up in the area of the target (this area might for novices be anywhere on the paper, for more experienced shooters it will be smaller). When within the area you take up the first stage weight. As the sight picture moves towards the bull you increase the pressure on the trigger, as it passes the bull you gently reduce the pressure. The aim will wobble around the middle and at some point the gun will fire as a "surprise". Improvement with practice centres around reducing the size of the "aim area" rather than expecting a perfect sight picture timed to coincide with a perfect break.
'Now' does not always lead to snatching not if you are using a wrist release all you have to do is click the mouse button.
 

4d4m

Active member
'Now' does not always lead to snatching not if you are using a wrist release all you have to do is click the mouse button.
As per your sig :)

It often does in pistol shooting which was the context of the post (why "surprise" isn't a bad thing). I don't have any experience to speak from in compound archery (I've shot a total of two arrows from a compound) but I would have thought if the archer activates the trigger with any kind of urgency there's a risk of more convulsive motion: more muscles in the hand and forearm being activated, leading to risk of moving off target. I shoot springer air rifles and any change in muscle tension just before or during the shot can change the point of impact, due to the rifle reacting differently during the motion of the piston.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
The low holding weights can lead to quite large movements that the archer my not notice in the rush to get the shot away.
If an archer looses off holding weight they deserve every thing they get, creeping poor alignment bad aim and so on, back tension is the key. I hold about 34 lb at anchor. That lines things up.
 

jerryRTD

Well-known member
As per your sig :)

It often does in pistol shooting which was the context of the post (why "surprise" isn't a bad thing). I don't have any experience to speak from in compound archery (I've shot a total of two arrows from a compound) but I would have thought if the archer activates the trigger with any kind of urgency there's a risk of more convulsive motion: more muscles in the hand and forearm being activated, leading to risk of moving off target. I shoot springer air rifles and any change in muscle tension just before or during the shot can change the point of impact, due to the rifle reacting differently during the motion of the piston.
With a hand held release yes there is the chance of 'motion leakage' to other fingers which could cause errors with a wrist release minor movement of the non trigger fingers has no effect as there are only two areas of contact , the trigger and the wrist strap. Even if you were to try to rush the trigger you cannot it because the release moves back on loose too fast
 

little-else

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AIUK Saviour
The surprise element isnt the action, it is the exact timing of the action. Your finger flesh spreads across the trigger so the increase in pressure initially is applied to a larger surface. To avoid snatching you have to increase the pressure you exert and as you are putting an elastic surface on an inelastic one you can never be absolutely certain when the release will occur.
With pistol shooting the is an optimum sight picture and yes, the better shooters wobble will be inperceptible but the object lesson for an improving shooter is to align the sights perfectly and concentrate on trigger release whilst maintaing the aligned sight inside your area of aim and over time reduce the aiming area.
The peep sight on a compound string gives you an advantage as far as sight alignment goes so getting the front sight centred and your wrist aligned so you dont twist or pull on release is more important than the front sight being perfectly over the gold as the errors at the back end are magnified by the ratio of the difference between the sights. A good relase and a front sight wobble around the red will result in all the arrows going inside the red and a good proportion of those in the gold.
Perfectly align the front sight and misalign the back with a poor release and the arrow could be anywhere but the last thing the archer saw was the sight on the gold so they will struggle to realise what is wrong.

My observations on compound archery is that the type of release you use and how it is set up is critical. I use a wrist release as my draw length isnt optimal but that is down to the fact I use a cheap bow that it at its limits of adjustment so a compromise has to be made. Anyone coaching compound shooting has a much tougher job getting the kit to fit the shooter than a recurve/barebow/longbow so a dedicated coach would be needed to get the best out of a person.
 
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