252 - How many scores?

fbirder

Supporter
Supporter
We are just implementing the 252 scheme at our club, so I've been looking at what others do. But there's some discrepancy in the number of qualifying rounds needed for a badge. Some say it must be achieved twice; others just once. At least one club stipulates that it must be achieved three times.

Should it be treated more like a classification or handicap (where three rounds need be shot) or like a 6-Gold End award where a lucky one-off is enough?

Surely the best comparison is with the Archery GB Progress Awards - which only require one qualifying score.

I know there's no official rules, but I'd be interested to hear what others do - and why.
 


bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
we require two scores, and the distances have to be done sequentially. We also have different scores for the different bowstyles
 


ben tarrow

Well-known member
At my club, we have a 200 badge scheme (3 doz, 5 zone scoring).
252 at 100 yards (3 dozen arrows 10 zone scoring) comes out at 31 on the handicap tables, which, if you convert it to a York round, comes out half way between Bowman and MB.
We felt that if you are shooting that standard, why would you be interested in 252 badges when, by that level, you're getting rose awards, fita badges, george crosses etc?
200 for 3 doz, 5 zone scoring at 100 yards, comes out at 38 on the handicap tables, which, again, converted via a york, comes out a whole classification lower, half way between 1st class and bowman.
We find that 200 at 20 yards (first badge for adult gents) should be achievable by the end of the beginners course, yet most start to be challenged by 30, 40 or 50 yards.
And yes, we give the badge for a single achievement of the requisite score. You might luck out the occasional score, but the next one will catch you if you're not really that good.

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At my club, we have a 200 badge scheme (3 doz, 5 zone scoring).
252 at 100 yards (3 dozen arrows 10 zone scoring) comes out at 31 on the handicap tables, which, if you convert it to a York round, comes out half way between Bowman and MB.
We felt that if you are shooting that standard, why would you be interested in 252 badges when, by that level, you're getting rose awards, fita badges, george crosses etc?
200 for 3 doz, 5 zone scoring at 100 yards, comes out at 38 on the handicap tables, which, again, converted via a york, comes out a whole classification lower, half way between 1st class and bowman.
We find that 200 at 20 yards (first badge for adult gents) should be achievable by the end of the beginners course, yet most start to be challenged by 30, 40 or 50 yards.
And yes, we give the badge for a single achievement of the requisite score. You might luck out the occasional score, but the next one will catch you if you're not really that good.
 


mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
W use three scores too follow the classification system.... a single score doesn't prove the repeatability which we are looking for prior to people moving up a distance.

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W use three scores too follow the classification system.... a single score doesn't prove the repeatability which we are looking for prior to people moving up a distance.
 


fbirder

Supporter
Supporter
W use three scores too follow the classification system.... a single score doesn't prove the repeatability which we are looking for prior to people moving up a distance.
So archers aren't allowed to shoot above a certain distance until they've achieved a 252 award at that distance?
 


little-else

Supporter
Supporter
one score, must be shot on a club official day for records purposes. Can shoot the badges in any order.
I cannot get my head around the idea that you need to shoot it 3 times and only progress to the next distance once you have that badge, there is no classification for it so nothing to follow apart from somebody's dogma. You dont have to repeat a world record score just to prove it is valid.
I thought that recreational sport is supposed to have at least an element of fun. It is bad enough being told what shade of green trousers not to wear lest the GNAS might mistake you for a foreign soldier. Mind you I was told off by a General for saluting him when incorrectly attired, ( was wearing tropical rig) I got my medal given to me later.
 


Raven's_Eye

Active member
Ironman
We have to have two scores, shot on two different days, must be shot at the club. You can shoot the distances in any order, but you can only claim the badges at the closer distance first.
We have also adjusted the scores for other bow types;

Compounds: 280
Recurve: 252
Barebow: 0-60yds 189, 80yds: 164, 100yds 139
Longbow: 0-60yds 164, 80yds, 126, 100yds 101
 


mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
So archers aren't allowed to shoot above a certain distance until they've achieved a 252 award at that distance?
Archers are allowed to shoot whatever distance they want at any time, but we encourage them to work through their 252 badges in order.
Experince has shown this makes the running of the shoot night go much smoother, and cause less consternation to the more experienced shooters, as you are not stopping every end to help a new shooter find arrows from where they have missed the boss due to trying to shoot distances they are just not ready for. The 252 scheme adds some structure to their distance increases and has proven to be a good thing for us.

It doesn't stop people having a go at longer distances though if they want to, but does make them realise when they are not really ready for a longer distance.

We do find that most people stop the 252 scheme by the time they are out at 60yds as they are then moving into classification rounds etc.
 


little-else

Supporter
Supporter
Not stopping to help people find thier arrows because they have missed the boss because they are shooting at distances they are not ready for? How come the handicap and classification tables dont have a cut off then?
Are there no longbow archers in Hull? To get Bm you only need to hit the boss twice per dozen at 100yds and even the winners of tournaments rarely get 72 hits starting at 60 yds.
It is supposed to be a progression scheme, initially aimed at novice adults but something that can be incorporated into other rounds to parallel the GNAS/AGB classification schemes. Mind you, if AGB actually got round to sorting out the scratch scores for all other bow styles so they actually mean something when comparing them to recurve and didnt obsess with the York round people woudnt have an imperative to invent their own interpretations on the 252
 


mbaker74

Supporter
Supporter
I would guess the handicap and classification tables assume that archers are shooting at the distances they are ready for. Have you actually shot for an evening with an archer who has over-reached themselves on distance, and are looking for 3 or 4 arrows every end? 10 minutes each end with a metal detector soon gets very tiring and the archers who are trying to get a scoring round in soon get disgruntled.
Yes we have longbow archers, some very good ones. The difference with longbow is that the more parabolic arc of the longbow arrows generally means they are sticking tail up in the ground or nicely on the top, easily picked up, unlike recurve arrows which seem more likely to hit the ground and slide in under he grass due to the lower trajectory.

And yes, it is a progression scheme, that's exactly what we use it for, and completely at odds to your current argument.
 


little-else

Supporter
Supporter
"handicap tables assume that archers are shooting at distances they are ready for". No, the tables cover all distances for all ages and abilities so if I was shooting against a 13 year old at 100 yds in a handicap match I would have to do better than I would against a fellow club member who is a MB because the 13 year old only has to hit the boss once with a score of 5 or more and it is game over for me. I would agree that if you forced a novice to shoot at 100yds to begin with and then they will pack in archery after a fortnight. The rules of shooting do not have anything to say about this so therefore it is not a problem. For fullbore rifle shooting under NRA rules if you fail to hit the target after a set number of shots in competition you have to withdraw, there is no equivalent rule for archery therefore it is not a problem that needs addressing.
I used to shoot with an old gentleman who was VERY good in his youth but had AMD and poor strength once he reached his 80's. He insisted on using abow he couldnt draw and shot at distances he could no longer reach but no-one wished to stop him enjoing himself and it was accepted that sharing a target with him would mean you spent a lot of time looking for his arrows.
I suppose what it all boils down to is I dont like rules for the sake of having them as everything that is not prescribed is allowable and this shouldnt be impeded by those placed in a position of power or authority. Any rule should have a purpose other than its own existence so that is why I question your version of the 252 scheme as it has no obvious positive purpose when compared to how the sceme is usually administered. You say it is a progression but so is swimming in porridge but not much of one compared to the usual swimming pool fluids.
My own club has introduced a couple of new rules that I disagree with because they are aimed at an individual rather than a general necessity. However, democracy has decided that it shall be so but I see us losing a member rather than seeing a change in the overall behaviour the rule was supposedly introduced to address.

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"handicap tables assume that archers are shooting at distances they are ready for". No, the tables cover all distances for all ages and abilities so if I was shooting against a 13 year old at 100 yds in a handicap match I would have to do better than I would against a fellow club member who is a MB because the 13 year old only has to hit the boss once with a score of 5 or more and it is game over for me. I would agree that if you forced a novice to shoot at 100yds to begin with and then they will pack in archery after a fortnight. The rules of shooting do not have anything to say about this so therefore it is not a problem. For fullbore rifle shooting under NRA rules if you fail to hit the target after a set number of shots in competition you have to withdraw, there is no equivalent rule for archery therefore it is not a problem that needs addressing.
I used to shoot with an old gentleman who was VERY good in his youth but had AMD and poor strength once he reached his 80's. He insisted on using abow he couldnt draw and shot at distances he could no longer reach but no-one wished to stop him enjoing himself and it was accepted that sharing a target with him would mean you spent a lot of time looking for his arrows.
I suppose what it all boils down to is I dont like rules for the sake of having them as everything that is not prescribed is allowable and this shouldnt be impeded by those placed in a position of power or authority. Any rule should have a purpose other than its own existence so that is why I question your version of the 252 scheme as it has no obvious positive purpose when compared to how the sceme is usually administered. You say it is a progression but so is swimming in porridge but not much of one compared to the usual swimming pool fluids.
My own club has introduced a couple of new rules that I disagree with because they are aimed at an individual rather than a general necessity. However, democracy has decided that it shall be so but I see us losing a member rather than seeing a change in the overall behaviour the rule was supposedly introduced to address.
 


Aleatorian

Member
@little-else
At the club myself and mbaker74 shoot at, just to clarify, the 252 system isn't restrictive. We do not force new archers to go through each distance and only allow them to shoot that the distance until they have qualified for the "252" score for that bowstyle at that distance. We recently had one of our juniors step up to 100yds and pound the target even though he was almost clout shooting to get the distance, he has never done a 60yd 252.
However, we do advise that they try to get them, or at least shoot until they feel comfortable with the distance. The aim of the game is consistency and these rounds do build that very well. Having to get 3 scores, much like a handicap also builds confidence that the scores can be achieved consistently.
As stated earlier, usually once they get out to 50/60yds, most convert to shooting full rounds rather than further pursuing 252 scores.

As an example, my gf has recently started shooting and after 2 weeks was comfortably hitting majority 9's at 20yds, but has not done a 252, she came and shot with me at 30m on a 6 zone face and by the end of the session was all scoring, I then put her back at 30yds (full face) to which she would comfortably pass a 252, wont be long til she is at 40yds. Probably never having done a 252!
 


little-else

Supporter
Supporter
Each club creates or borrows its own version of the 252 scheme as there isnt a prescribed one so I am not saying yours is wrong but does seem to be onerous and would be offputting to me for several reasons already touched upon. My previous club didnt havea stand alone scheme, of you got 252+ with the first 3 dozen arrows at your first distance you got the badge, I started outdoor shooting at 50 yds so never got one there. My current club intoroduced the scheme this year and along with many other members decided to try and get a few feathers in our caps by doing the rounds as a stand alone and I have been successful in getting all of the badges for the shorter distances with every bow style but would strguggle to do so at 40 yds with nay bow so does that mean I am shooting beyond my perceived abilities and slowing everyone else down? We do an albion league but have difficulty in getting people to shoot at 80 yds because they have it imprinted in their minds that they can only hit the target consistently at 60 yds so participating in the league will be beyond them whereas I know I will most likley miss with an arrow or two per end and think I have done well if I dont.
I was discarding most of my old score sheets this morning whe I came across my first 185m clout shoot score sheet done with barebow. after 6 misses for sighters and a first scoring arrow miss I got the next 35 arrows in the scoring zone, mostly ones and twos but still there. The further away the target is the better I do relatively. It may be the angle of elevation that suits me or a lower expectaion of results so a more relaxed position, release etc, I dont know but I do know that it is both challenging and enjoyable, my emphasis being on that last bit.
I see the scheme is a measure of progression, not a method and that is where we seem to differ in our approach.
Why is the national speed limit on single carriageways 60 mph? The answer is because of an event back in the 1970's that will never recur but we still have the limit in place and you often hear people repeat the mantra that it is there for a reason but cant say what that reason is (originally OPEC and balance of payments crisis causing oil imports problem so it was a way of reducing fuel consumption whe cars averaged under 25mpg). Create a prescriptive system and it limits i for its own sake rather than for any real reason.
Use the AGB/GNAS rules where they apply but also use the freedom to not apply them unless necessary. I think that once freed from a constraint people are more likely to give something new a bash because they might just be able to do it rather than tell themselves to wait until they know they can. I believe that it will speed up people's progression
 


fbirder

Supporter
Supporter
Thanks for the replies everybody.

We've decided to require two qualifying scores. People can shoot for badges in any order (it seemed silly to insist that some archers couldn't get their 80 yard badge until they'd done 20 yards).

We're suggesting that people shoot dedicated rounds for most qualifying scores. That's because, except for outside competitions, we tend to shoot metric rounds. It seemed like a good idea to bring the club into the 20th century. So scoring 260 for the first three dozen of a Long Metric III (at 50 m with 10-zone scoring) won't qualify for a 252 - 50 yard badge?!
 


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