Addicted to big brands

LarsBirdsong

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I've always wondered why so many recreational Archers seem to be addicted to brand names and are so often disparaging of the more obscure and less popular brands. I can't count the amount of times that I've heard ' cheap Chinese s**t ' or ( from our Colonial cousins ) ' I only buy American. ' Why exactly is that? Or there's the, ' If it's good enough for (blank blank ) it's good enough for me. ' argument. I'm pretty sure that those who follow the latter must be aware that Mr or Miss Blank Blank is being made handsomely to use that particular piece of kit. So why do we as recreational archers do it? Surely the difference in performance cannot be that significant. Or can it?
 

Timid Toad

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Two points there:
A lot of the cheap Chinese s**t as you term it is badly made rip off copy of someone else's hard work, and therefore is IP theft and deserves all the abuse it gets. Unfortunately this attitude is now spreading to some western manufacturers, too, now that it's quick and easy to scan an item and go from a 3D model. If it's an original design then it's not an issue, wherever it's come from.
Secondly yes, just about everything seen on the tournament circuit (and these days that includes the Field scene) is part of a deal with a manufacturer.
 

LarsBirdsong

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I don't refer to the gear as cheap Chinese s**t, it's what I've heard from others. Whenever I need to buy gear, I buy what I can afford, functional and is appropriate for my needs. I'm a recreational archer and I want to get as good as I can, expensive gear wont do that, but acquiring good technique and lots of practice will.
 

Timid Toad

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Whatever the price I won't buy something that is based on stolen intellectual property. I'd rather save up a little longer and have a clear conscience, or buy quality second hand; always a good option with bow junkies changing kit every year.
 

KidCurry

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I was at the Masters last weekend and I was asked what button I used. I said same as you, a Beiter. Turns out the other chaps button was a cheap copy. There was no way I could tell the difference. It's a shame there is no respect for other peoples ideas anymore.
I do buy the best I can afford, usually when it's in a sale :) It is nice to shoot really well made branded kit from time to time. My best ever buy was, is, a W&W AXT riser, new, for £259.
 
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Graham Smith

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I was guilty of buying the top brands because I thought it would make me a better archer. It didn't!. I bought all things Win & Win, CXT riser, Power limbs and W & W stabs. As I say it didn't make me a better archer.

As for cheap Chinese s**t, well you have to be careful with Chinese gear, not just archery equipment. There are a lot of rip offs and cheap copies of all things coming from China. The exception to this is the Black Hunter bow. I bought one over two years ago and it is of excellent quality and shoots as well as my other, more expensive trad bow.

I suppose it is a matter of not going for the cheapest but not going over the top either.
 

Stretch

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I buy brands I have confidence in. I entered archery with what would now be “cheapo Chinese” (but back then was actually Korean). It shot OK but had limits (539 Portsmouth kind of thing). I bought a UK reputable brand upgrade (Marksman KG1) shot 575 within a few months and 1192 Fita that year but broke it within 18 months and they offered no service. I bought a Hoyt - hated it. I bought a Stylist loved it. Destroyed a set of limbs - Stylist replaced them - repeat quite a few times (1240 Fitas) - eventually gave up on Stylist limbs when a pair delaminated after 24 shots - tried everything… bought a Hoyt Avalon (1250Fitas/1140 York) and stayed with Hoyt even through the cracking Avalon phase (5 cracked in 2 years) because each time caused very little grief… they replaced them without question (Limbs survived an attack from an Audi 80) Risers are much easier to replace than limbs. I’ve been with Hoyt ever since (although have tried Samick, W&W and Border (a few times) along the way. Our experience with the brand influences our future purchasing decisions.

I guess I am lucky enough to be able to afford the kit I want (Not so much before the Hoyt Avalon in the timeline above).

Nowadays things are less clear, the trickle down of production and materials means there are some very good contenders in the mid-field also but something like a Shibuya sight is so worth the investment. Some of the mid-field do their homework and create their own stuff (the new Seb Flute bows being a good example) some just knock-off designs of recently popular bows - I’d agree that some folks are disparaging about knock-offs…me included. If you think your fake GMX shoots like a GMX you never shot a GMX - it probably shoots OK but…

So just taking limbs as an example… the difference between £100 limbs and £300 limbs is a chasm. The difference between £300 and £800 limbs is noticeable. However if someone wanted the best limbs they could buy at a mid-point they most like wouldn’t be the “top brand”.

Stretch
 

dvd8n

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I don't I make my own kit and shun the money-go-round
Del
That's similar to what I was going to say. Once you get away from the recurve and compound unlimited guys there are loads of archers shooting with homemade tabs, or bracers, or quivers; with arrows and strings that they've made themselves; and in a few cases even their own bows.
 

Timid Toad

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Kind of brings us back to warranty...you buy a cheap knock off you've got nothing. You'd be better buying most kit (with the possible exception of limbs) from a quality manufacturer second hand, probably in immaculate condition simply because it isn't this year's offering.

Arrows I always buy branded. Usually second hand. I've tried the "others" and they are so badly variable when it comes to spine weight and matching they might as well go straight to tent poles. Complete waste of money.
For limbs I'd definitely be wanting dealer back up. (I shoot flight and clout and field and fall over and do all sorts of stuff to my kit). So my recommendation would fall into several sections:

If you are a beginner, go to a shop and get on to one of their limb exchange schemes so as your needs grow you can change up. Good value in the long run, with lots of advice along the way.

If you are a more seasoned club archer and you can't feel the difference between the various limb shapes then I would recommend you go for the brand that shoots you out to the distance you want, but I would be looking for the dealer/warranty support out there too. Limbs fail, even to the top archers. Even at the Olympics.

If you can feel the shapes in that draw force curve then you're an enthusiast and there's no one producing cheaper alternatives successfully so you'll be happy spending your money to shoot the feel you are looking for, whatever that might be. Welcome to the illness that is archery.

In my view there is some great mid-priced kit out there (SF, Fivics, WNS etc) that is produced using their own IP and has all the back up of a decent warranty and a dealer network. Always the better option.
 

Rabid Hamster

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does anyone know who owns Kinetic? Just saw their new 23" entry level riser the scopus. thought it looked like a real quality product for very little money - anodized, wooden handle, nice aesthetics. just struck me as the sort of kit that really makes archery accessible and a move away from some of the iffier "junior suitable" risers I've seen recently. (clunky, heavy, quality very variable, aesthetically hmmm! )
 

chrisgas

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Over the last 10 years, probably spent 20k plus on archery but for 7 bows and arrows, no more than 1k in total.
 

Derek Cater

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does anyone know who owns Kinetic? Just saw their new 23" entry level riser the scopus. thought it looked like a real quality product for very little money - anodized, wooden handle, nice aesthetics. just struck me as the sort of kit that really makes archery accessible and a move away from some of the iffier "junior suitable" risers I've seen recently. (clunky, heavy, quality very variable, aesthetically hmmm! )
The Kinetic brand is owned by SSA Archery, a Belgian distibutor.
 

Thorvald

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Well - quite interesting topic. Of course it comes down to what people can afford and what they want. Secondly - even though I have been into archery for appr. 35 years, I don't know many brands. What comes to mind is Hoyt, Mathews, Prime, PSE, Bowtech maybe Bear (but never really studied them), more specifically for recurve bows Samick, W&W, Border and Green Horn. And then a few for leverbows. I am quite sure there are more - and good - European / American / Western brands out there, but they are just not that known - to me at least. For arrows, I have allways only shot Easton - I buy the parts and build my arrows my self. And why Easton? Because I like their work, the good quality of the arrows, I have confidence in the arrows etc. Plus I also look at the design, the aestetically side of the shafts. That also goes for bow: Design and aestetics are important to me - that the bow looks good in my eyes. Other than that I look at if the engineering is interesting, if it technically / engineering wise has some benefits / or is interesting. Of course I also look at if I believe the quality is good, materials it is made of etc. And if what I like best costs not so much, then I'll chose that over something that costs the double. But if the one that costs more is what fullfills my interests, then that's what I'll get.
With that said I'd think that one can shoot as well with a mid-price bow as with an expensive bow - it depends on the archer. But sometimes the better quality (and thus often the higher price tag), might as well improve an archers performance.
 

albatross

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If you think your fake GMX shoots like a GMX you never shot a GMX
Yes I did and loved it. Until shoulder problems doing indoor shooting did not allow enough recovery time between ends due to the riser weight. I recovered from the injury this year and brought a Cartel Campus riser - the price was right was the reason. It was only later I read that some people stated they thought it was a 'GMX Clone'. It does shoot like I remembered the GMX. I am more than pleased with it.
 
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Stretch

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I can’t see a Cartel Campus but I can see a Decut Campus… is that the same riser? Can’t see how that is a GMX clone if it is. 100g lighter to start. I also can’t see how you get a GMX balance without more mass under the grip? Oh and it doesn’t look anything like a GMX. But no, a GMX is not for someone with a shoulder problem. This is not the type of “clone” I was talking about. Go onto Ali Express and you’ll find 100% lookalikes to Uukha riser and limbs… and the Border Tempest - scanned, copied, knocked out. GMX is a bit old hat for the knockoff brigade now.

I think the Decut Basha and the Sanlida Miracle are the remaining “like a GMX” but there were ones that were much closer 5 or 6 years ago - both much lighter though. If you shoot them side by side you’ll see what they are (which might be fine) and what they aren’t.

Stretch
 

albatross

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I can’t see a Cartel Campus but I can see a Decut Campus… is that the same riser? Can’t see how that is a GMX clone if it is. 100g lighter to start. I also can’t see how you get a GMX balance without more mass under the grip? Oh and it doesn’t look anything like a GMX. But no, a GMX is not for someone with a shoulder problem. This is not the type of “clone” I was talking about. Go onto Ali Express and you’ll find 100% lookalikes to Uukha riser and limbs… and the Border Tempest - scanned, copied, knocked out. GMX is a bit old hat for the knockoff brigade now.

I think the Decut Basha and the Sanlida Miracle are the remaining “like a GMX” but there were ones that were much closer 5 or 6 years ago - both much lighter though. If you shoot them side by side you’ll see what they are (which might be fine) and what they aren’t.

Stretch
Yes you are correct. My mistake I was reading another thread before this one it is a 'Decut Campus'. I said that other people suggested it was a GMX clone. No matter I like this riser. If I ever come across a GMX at the right price I will be very tempted.
 
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