Carter Adjusting the Carter Only

MikeD

New member
Hi,

Can anyone explain what the difference is between the three different crescents with the Carter Only. Preferably without using faster or slower, which just confuses me, as I understand the release goes off when the set angle is exceeded.

Say I have the angle set with 4 dots on the circumference showing on the number 3 crescent end. What is the effect when shooting if I have the same 4 dots but with the number 5 crescent or number 1 crescent? Experimenting is a bit terrifying and I can't really tell what's happening with a bit of string.

The Carter 'manual' says nothing useful.

Cheers

Mike
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
MikeD, if you look at the head of the release, when it flips back to set itself, does it come to rest against the body of the handle? I am wondering if the different crescents alter how far back the head flips when it sets itself. That might explain the "up to 35deg" on the blurb.
 


MikeD

New member
Hi Geoff,

The crescents move in and out to adjust the angle (rotate about the radius of the arc). The different numbers at the ends of the crescent (I think) indicate a fractionally steeper or shallow angle on the face that the head flips off. So each crescent might have up to 35deg, but each crescent end is a much smaller range of angles, maybe a degree difference from number 0 to number 5.

I think the intention might be that they are a kind of fine tuning of the angle. Sort of like 4 on any crescent, but the different crescents give from 3.7 to 4.3. Whatever it is is so subtle I can't feel a difference on a Saunders firing-line 'bow simulator'.

Cheers

Mike
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi MikeD,
Just been on Archery Talk.
From what they say I was sort of thinking along the right lines.
The crescents can be fitted so they hold the head of the release tilted right back or not so far back. That means the handle will be sloping more or less in comparison to the head. The idea is, that the fast/slow can be set at one end of the crescent, but the angle of the handle is done separately.
From what I gathered, having the handle at a different angle, isn't changing the speed. It is changed to make it feel stiffer to move or less stiff. Like stiffening a very long trigger.
 


MikeD

New member
Hi geoffretired,

I think they've been reading the Carter 'manual' ;)

I can't make sense of the terms fast and slow with my understanding of the geometry of the crescent. Does fast mean early and slow mean late? In which case they are a fine tuning of the angle at which the release 'fires'. I cannot see how speed can come into it, a hook crosses a sharp edge going from not fired to fired in a minute fraction of a second. It's not going to be noticeably faster if the angle of that edge is 89.5deg instead of 90deg, but it might be a little earlier. Wouldn't that be the same a slightly less stiff? (but not easy to adjust the angle repeatably by tiny amounts with this design, unlike some of the other hinge releases)

My brain must be wired differently to the marketing man at Carter ;)
 


MikeD

New member
I found something on Archery Talk. I think I get it now.

The main crescent angle is the course adjustment. When you settle into anchor, this is the 'clicked' position of hinge releases with a clicker. The second angle on the end of the crescent determines how far you need to move to get the release to happen. It can be set from 'instant' (like a trigger release with no travel) to requiring some movement. So it is, in effect, a fine tuning of the angle that the release actually happens. Fast means no movement (no change in angle), slow means some travel (with a slight increase in the angle), with 6 stages of adjustment between.

So I guess it's down to how confident you are that you will be at exactly the clicked position when you settle into anchor. Indoors you can probably set for no movement (fast), outdoors on a field course with gradients you probably want it to require a bit more movement to account for less than perfect alignment.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Do the crescents have a "click" position? And if so, does each one click at a different distance from the end, in other words having late and early crescents?
 


MikeD

New member
Hi Geoff

No, there isn't a click.

I just got this from Forrest Carter (which I think confirms my understanding).


The Only crescents can be adjusted two ways. The speed setting dots on the side of the crescents show the positioning of the crescents. You can adjust the speed of the installed crescent by moving it either out for as lower release, or in for a faster release. The positioning dots let you know exactly where the crescent is. Moving the crescent in or out will also affect the head position.

Now let's say that you have your head position where you want it, but still want to change the speed of how fast the release will fire. For example, you have the hinge head in the desired position with 3 crescent position indicator dots showing, but still want it slower. You can install ad ifferent crescent, for example the number 5 crescent, with the same position of the 3 positioning dots showing and it will require more"execution" for the release to fire. This is due to the more angle cut into the end of the crescent. The higher the number (0 - 5), the slower the crescent due to the amount of angle cut into the end of each crescent.


So I do my initial set up with a mid range crescent and get as close as I can with a repeatable setting on the crescent. I can then make it a little easier (faster), or harder (slower) by switching the crescents but keeping the same amount of crescent exposed.There will be much playing with the Saunders Firing Line tonight and hopefully the same results with the bow tomorrow. :)
 


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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Cheers for that, Mike,
Another mystery solved.
Heehee, nothing really exceptional about it, just a different way of fine tuning. A nice way really, so I am not mocking it.

With my tru ball I had a needle that I fixed( using a magnet) to the flat of the half moon. With the whole thing clamped in a jig( very simple) I could move the half moon by minute amounts as the needle point amplified the movement. The needle swung round a scale, so I could set it and reset it if required.
 


MikeD

New member
I worked at the set up with the Firing Line yesterday. Starting with the number 3 crescent. I pulled out the crescent 1 dot at a time until I was confident I could get settled into my anchor without the release firing. I then found the release fired with next to no effort on applying additional back tension. Too easy, so I switched to the number 5 crescent. That seemed quite a bit harder, so I settled on the number 4. I tried up and downhill shots and it seemed OK, a bit of difference. Not nearly so much difference as the Attraction on up and downhill shots.

It's so easy to repeat the setup, it would be practical to switch crescents on the shooting line for extreme up or downhill shots. For our course there's nothing over 10deg so I don't think that will be necessary.

I'm just hoping the same setup works with the bow, so I can practice execution with the Firing Line
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Firing too easy is bad for the heart! It's a simple process in theory but I find it difficult to feel confident about getting the set up "right".
With a thumb trigger ,I have days when it seems too stiff, and others when it is too easy and fires early,before I am fully set up. A job in progress!!
It feels as if I need someone on my shoulder TELLING me to get on and do it right.
 


MikeD

New member
I can't be trusted with a thumb release ;)

I think I still have an element of target panic in that subconsciously I don't try to execute if the aim is not steady. So as a result it seems hard, or takes a long time to get the release to happen. The natural reaction to that is to make the release easier to trigger. Until you get to the point where it goes off too easily, as soon as you come to anchor or disengaging safety with the Attraction. I should come down and start the shot again. I need someone on my shoulder pulling my ear each time I hold for too long to remind me to come down ;)

As to why some days are harder than others. For me I think this is to do with light levels. If the light is bright the ring on the lens 'flares' and so any movement is more obvious. So I'm trying different colours of ring, shades and so on to try and even things out.
 


geoffretired

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Interesting stuff. I still get the shakes once my sight is round the gold. My TP was the sort where the trigger went before I could get the sight into the gold. Seems like there are remnants still lurking. I have worked a lot on release aid activation, but need to work on getting rid of those shakes, I guess.
Having a long travel on my hinge seemed to help. The problem is that the hinge adds too much to the draw length and I am then overdrawing myself.
 


fanio

Active member
As to why some days are harder than others. For me I think this is to do with light levels. If the light is bright the ring on the lens 'flares' and so any movement is more obvious. So I'm trying different colours of ring, shades and so on to try and even things out.
It is more likely that you have just not practiced enough. So the range of your natural inconsistency of execution (we all have it, to some degree) is big enough for you to really notice a difference between "good days" and "bad days".

The following statement is easy to understand at first (but seems more difficult to me the more I think about it), but you really have to separate your execution process from your aiming process. This is - except for very rare individuals - the only way to become an excellent archer.**

Be careful / precise during the "set up" phase of your shot (all the steps up to "anchor"). Then there is a decision point: "Go" or "No Go", depending on how the set-up feels:

* if it is "No Go", then let down and start again.
* if it is "Go", then (1) start execution process and (2) start aiming (in this order). You should keep the execution running unless:
- there is a safety concern
- the execution process stalls for some reason
- the sight picture breaks down completely.

It is important to ignore the dot movement if it is within your normal "float pattern".



** both compound and recurve. With recurve, you have to separate "pulling through the clicker" from "aiming". In fact, the true advantage of using a clicker is this enforced separation of the release signal from the aiming process.
 


geoffretired

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Supporter
Interesting ,Fanio.
Separating the two, takes will power I find. When will power drives the execution despite the aiming, the results can be encouraging enough to gain confidence and so shoot better. It is maintaining that situation that I find difficult.
I am gradually learning where my variables are( note; I did not say Valuables) variables that are physical, such as reference points, bow upright, string line, back muscle use. That builds confidence of a sort.
Variables like looking through to the gold longer and willing the trigger regardless of the aim, are more subtle and so easily damaged.
 


MikeD

New member
It is important to ignore the dot movement if it is within your normal "float pattern".
Hi Fanio,

This is the key for me. When I can ignore the movement I make good shots. What seems to happen is that on sunny days the ring is brighter and more prominent so the float pattern is more difficult to ignore. Then after deciding Go, subconciously there is an Actually, No Go and I don't really make the effort for the execution, until consciously I take over with the resulting bad shot.

I have used a tru-spot scope and had very good results with that, but it does not work at all for animal faces or 3Ds. I suspect my other scope does not help as it has a clear housing.

With bright coloured 10-zone targets I use a black ring and this is not such a problem. However I mostly shoot IFAA black and white targets. The black ring is too subtle then, specially on hunter faces with a white spot in the middle of a black square. Orange flares up horribly in bright light (specially if the target is in the shade). I'm trying yellow at the moment and also looking at changing scope to one with a built in shade and black housing which should reduce the effect of bright light on the lens, at least most of the time.
 


geoffretired

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Different faces and different scopes etc etc do upset things at times.I tried moving the extension further out so the aperture looked smaller. I found aiming was a little more accurate, in the sense that I knew I was nearer the centre and with less travel off to one side or the other. That just seemed to hold back the triggering. Perhaps it is simply the novelty causing some changes in the routine, even though the routine should finish as usual.
I wonder if a black dot in the centre would work. Not a tiny one to position in the middle of the gold or white. But big enough to hide the gold or white. If it is big enough, the gold or white will stay hidden despite small shakes and wobbles. If it is too close to the apparent size of gold/white, the slightest move will show some gold/white as a crescent and distract.
 


MikeD

New member
Hi Geoff,

I like that idea. It's basically how the tru-spot scope works. There's a bit of a snag with the IFAA faces. Field faces have a black spot with a white ring and then another black ring. I suspect a black dot bigger than the target spot would be like a dot smaller than the gold and show the movement. The other challenge is that the targets are shot at a wide range of distances so the apparent size of the spot changes. For example a 30cm face is shot at distances from 15 yards to 30 yards.

One option I have is to shoot the Tru-spot scope and switch to a different scope for animal rounds. This would be fine for most of the time, except the Scottish Field Championships where there is a Field round followed by an animal round on the first day. I'd need to find a way to switch scopes and get the windage and sightmark adjustment correct, potentially without being able to shoot and check. Two sights would do it, but be a bit expensive. A second sight block would do it too and be cheaper, but I'd have order from the USA as no-one seems to have spares for Sure-Loc sights.
 


geoffretired

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What about a spare lens? The screw in method would be simple enough... or not?
I have a scope with a hole in the centre of the lens. I made a black peg that fitted the hole and the head of the peg was the size I thought I needed. It didn't work out once I was unable to use a peep sight, but different pegs could be any size any colour and always central.
 


MikeD

New member
What about a spare lens? The screw in method would be simple enough... or not?
That would be too easy ;) The lens sizes are different for the different scopes I have and a normal lens isn't available for the tru-spot scope. But it might be the same size as a different manufacturer, or I could get an optician to grind a bit off a slightly larger lens.

Thanks Geoff, you may have saved me from buying another scope.
 


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