AGB Advice for returning to shooting 13/5/20

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
there are currently 3 versions of what is supposedly what that appear in the AGB website and they all have different guidance notes.
so back to other people's assumtions about my scribblings. the refeerence to mechanical release aids appears in one of them and tbh how can it significantly increase the velocity of an arrow if the bow doesnt have enough oomph to propel it at silly speeds in the first place?
If an arrow from a compound is doing 211 fps at 100 yds why it is somehow more powerful than an arrow from a recurve doing 214 fps of a very similar weight? I am making calculations using measurements taken with a chrono and then put through published tables for drag etc, not assumptions about someone else's bow.
regarding overshoot, again there are different versions, depending on which document you use so is it 50yds, 50yds or 50m beyond any distance shot, a total of 150 yds or 50yds + some more for a mechanical release or somethng else?. they are all mentioned.
One of the papers doesnt have anything about indoor ranges so if you took that to heart they dont fulfil the overshoot criteria so cant be used.

Our berm is 3.4m high so hoovers up arrows that fly at a linear tangent of 2 degrees at 140m. This doesnt seem like a lot but sonsider you target at 100 yds is less than half a degree across it is an overshoot of 3 target diameters and that equates to an extra 40 yds behind the target. If you walk nearer that angle increases which actually increases the amount of beaten ground


I do agree that there appears to be a large amount of guesswork (around virus containment) and that is a problem that no-one wants to even challenge. the latest data shows that wearing a mask means you are twice as likely to get infected as you are when distancing at 2m but we havent had a press release from AGB with updated advice and i doubt if we will hear anything to change their current guidance for a long time to come. The likely reason for the greater risk for mask wearers is twofold, increased risk by prolonged contact with others and the liklihood of people touching their masks to adjust them and contaminating themselves.
same goes with the non handling of other people's targets, the stricture is based on WHO output that they then recinded about 3 days later and then completely disowned by the end of March but it has stuck in the minds of the press and AGB in particular.
No-one in my club has used gloves correctly so again people are creating a greater risk by relying on them rather than simply washing their hands after putting the targets out and the after putting them away agin.

When I used to design and build rifle and pistol ranges we used to have to design them for a minimum specification but a lot of what you could do was dependant upon the materials used and where these were utilised. Once done the army certified them to conform with their AFK1314 because they may have been needed in an emergency in tmes of peril and they needed to know what classes of ammunition could be used where ( so differnt bullets make a difference to range construction with say timber added to hard armour plate for full metal jacket rounds). Indeed, the first one I built which was my "home" range was used by the army and police during the Iranian Embassy seige. The certificate showed the limits of what could be shot regarding velocity and energy, the rest was down to whether what your did fulfilled the overall template so steel baffles could be used on an outdoor 300m rifle range instead of having a mile of spare land for an overshoot. Take off angles for different classes of firearm and shooting position were taken into account but there was no mention of a heated clubroom in any of the technical documents. With regard to backstop they listed a number of existing types and you were invited to follow that lead or show why yours was as effective so a short range tunnel range could be built in a person's garden utilising a concrete pipe and no 4m berm, anti splash wood cladding etc.

now none of this logic appears to have been applied to an archery range, merely a bias against certain types if equipment withlout having gone through the nuisance of checking what differences it actually makes. Gravity affects everything the same so it should be possible for someone to tell me what is a safe angle of elevation for any bow and therefore design a template to fit them.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
the refeerence to mechanical release aids appears in one of them and tbh how can it significantly increase the velocity of an arrow if the bow doesnt have enough oomph to propel it at silly speeds in the first place?
I hope I am not taking this reference out of context.
The danger with a mechanical release aid, isn't really directly connected to the speed of the bow.
The mechanical release aid, and the compound bow, together, are a dangerous mix. The danger is IF the release gets triggered, accidentally, before the archer is at full draw.
The posture of the archer and therefore, elevation of the arrow at that time, will send the arrow far higher than it would be when on aim.
Finger shooters rarely let go of the string at a bad time.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
... the refeerence to mechanical release aids appears in one of them and tbh how can it significantly increase the velocity of an arrow if the bow doesnt have enough oomph to propel it at silly speeds in the first place?
It can't. You may get 5% extra arrow speed from a bow shot with a release aid but that's about all. The issue is accidental releases of an arrow with a release aid.
If an arrow from a compound is doing 211 fps at 100 yds why it is somehow more powerful than an arrow from a recurve doing 214 fps of a very similar weight?
If you are talking about kinetic energy and the two arrows are the same weight then the recurve arrow, traveling at 214 fps, will have more kinetic energy than the compound arrow traveling at 211fps. However the stored energy of a compound is significantly more than that of a recurve of similar draw weight. A 20lb junior compound will have a similar velocity to a 35lb recurve.
 
Last edited:

Rik

Supporter
Supporter
Wasn't there a coach who used a clicking device to try and train people to not blindly release on the clicker? Wandered along the shooting line going "click" as they were training...
 

Mark2

Active member
AIUK Saviour
Unless they hear a click then all bets are off 🤣
No recurve archer has ever released an arrow accidentally. And I am sure the holes in the walls and doors of the living room have absolutely nothing to do with a click that was unexpected. They are buggers to pull out of oak when shot from 6 feet mind.
 

Mark2

Active member
AIUK Saviour
I hope I am not taking this reference out of context.
The mechanical release aid, and the compound bow, together, are a dangerous mix. The danger is IF the release gets triggered, accidentally, before the archer is at full draw.
If? or when? Maybe release aids should have a safety? Oh, have I just missed a patent opportunity?

If you have never seen it go to world archery youtube link below, at 5:40

QED
Personally I think I'll sit at the shooting line end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

ben tarrow

Well-known member
Little-Else: AGB's idea of using gloves is thick cotton gardening type gloves to prevent you from getting splinters, not the latex ones to protect you from CV.
I think people are hyper sensitive about not touching something that someone else has touched. As long as you wash / sanitise your hands afterwards, you'll be ok. You can't catch CV by absorbing it through your skin, despite what others may tell you.
Put your boss up, clean your hands, put your target face on the boss, shoot some arrows.
It doesnt get much safer than that.
BTW, at 3.4m, your berm is plenty big enough. AGB recommends using brick walls at 12 feet tall, though I can't find the reference.
Since you talked about being just a metre short, can't you just move your initial shooting line back a metre to start with?
 

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Ben, to take your last point first, no, we back onto a football field the guidance about berms appears in 2 of their docs and mentions a height of 4m in one of them but no template is offered as to waht distance applies as that is still near as damn it 2 deg when behind a 100yd boss

Kidcurry, my point is that velocity and energies of the projectiles are completely ignored by the AGB guidelines and templates. and why is there a bias against the shooter of an arrow that has the same characteristics in flight as another but from a different shaped bent stick thing. My examples are measured, the first being my bow that has a peak weight of 40lbs and a draw length of 27" using cheap carbon arrows that are fat versus a fellow archer's kit ( he is 6'4") using 32"ACC's from a recurve that draws 51#. His longer thinner arrows weigh almost the same so when it comes to achieveable distances and arc there is a difference but out to 100 yds these differences balance out evenly and energy is almost the same as well (unlike a comparison with a say 80# draw longbow loosing a standard livery arrow where it has a high arc and low speed but still has twice the kinetic energy due to the mass of the arrow). Yes, I could tweak my cams and make the bow loose an arrow another 50fps faster but I cant draw the thing then and the question about safety angles for overshoot rather than a guessed at fixed distance still holds.( as it would with the livery arrow)
The AGB document doesnt say anything about accidental release, merely they create more speed, which other than a little vibration reduction is nonsense. I appreciate you are trying to interpret the reasoning behind their statement but that should be necessary in a 44 page AGB document

Regarding the evils of release aid, that is why I ask about a take off angle for safety and as for a high draw, I never do one, always drawing at about 45 deg to the ground and so does anyone I know. recurve is supposed to be parallel and going back to the template for guns the same applies although the military have a slightly different version for their "alert" position it is still a low start position and the old methods of extending your shooting arms above the target and dropping down to align went out years ago. No outdoor range is complately idiot proof (or even malfunction proof) but the design is mated with the doctrine and practice.
I have been met with silence in my approach to the people who drew up the guidance
As for gloves, again I have made my observations to the powers that be but all I got was a reiteration of the current guides. My observations of what peopel do show that washing your hands after putting out your boses and again after putting them away is the simplest method of infection control and a damned sight cheaper than the 100+ pairs of disposable gloves that we will get through a week following the(non updated for ebst knowledge and practice) rules.
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
I think gloves are a sort of false refuge for people. It can lead them into feeling safer when they aren't.
Yep. I saw someone in a shop yesterday carefully put a glove on, handle the stock with it then scratch their face with it. I'm not criticising though - most people just aren't used to the discipline needed for masks and gloves. And why would they be?
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Yes indeed. We see gloves so often on tv in hospital programmes, used for protection, they must be safe.And then the thinking stops. I am as guilty as anyone for thinking that way... until recently. The problem is made worse by feeling there is nothing else to learn about the gloves; everyone knows how to put them on and take them off.Who needs lessons in using them?
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Kidcurry, my point is that velocity and energies of the projectiles are completely ignored by the AGB guidelines and templates. and why is there a bias against the shooter of an arrow that has the same characteristics in flight as another but from a different shaped bent stick thing.
This bit I don't understand as all bows (all bent sticks) are classed as equal, even one with cams. It's only if you chose to shoot one of them, any one of them, with a release aid does it change and then only for distances below 100yds. So there is no bias.
The AGB document doesnt say anything about accidental release, merely they create more speed...
I can't see where it says anything about 'more speed' anywhere.
Regarding the evils of release aid, that is why I ask about a take off angle for safety and as for a high draw, I never do one, always drawing at about 45 deg to the ground and so does anyone I know.
Most archers I shoot with draw horizontal or just a bit above horizontal, on a flat field. 45 degrees to the ground sounds odd.
Trying to regulate archery for every possible arrow speed sounds like a nightmare if that's what you suggest.
 
Last edited:

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Yes indeed. We see gloves so often on tv in hospital programmes, used for protection, they must be safe...
Twelve weeks ago my wife and I went shopping to tesco. It was a couple of weeks before lockdown. The chap on the till went to great lengths explaining why latex gloves were only need for doctors and nurses. I explained my wife was high risk but he insisted they were not necessary. 12 weeks later he is wearing gloves. Gloves even remind me not to touch my face. For people that can't handle wearing gloves they probably shouldn't. On the archery range, for people that know how to use them, they are a bit safer but probably not a lot.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
AGB said:
A significant change is that indoor shooting will be permitted. However, all archers must wear face coverings when shooting indoors and in all indoor environments, except when actively shooting
'...archers must wear face coverings when shooting indoors... except when actively shooting'
Does this mean you need to keep taking them off and putting them on between ends? This is not good and goes against all medical advice
of not touching the mask unless to clean your hands first. I have taken 'actively shooting' to mean when you have a bow in hand.
But if you decide to do some light weight lifting between ends you don't need a mask at all as gyms are exempt from wearing them.
 
Last edited:

Big George

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Am I actively shooting from the time I start shooting ends to when I stop shooting ends? So would all the time I’m collecting and waiting for the end to start/finish count as active but if after for example, shooting a bray, I stop for a break then I would need to put a mask on.

It would make sense to arrive in a make, set kit up masked, unmask to shoot, mask when finished or taking a break (by which I mean missing an end), mask to take bow down, our things away.

As KidCurry says, it does need clarification as removing and putting on masks should not be too often.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I am not understanding the reasons for avoiding taking masks off and on too often.
If the mask is to protect others from a possibly infected person, why would the infected person make things worse by taking it off and on, and needing to keep washing their hands?
Is it possibly, that the infected person would get the virus on their hands more and need to avoid touching things that others may later touch?
 
Top