AGB - no membership refunds

Kerf

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The problem with AGB as I see and feel it is one of disengagement. How many of us can honestly say we have feelings of fondness or loyalty to AGB. I’m a member because I have to be. My county and regional fees come to the princely sum of £5 per annum. I’m not sure what I get from these bodies on a day to day basis but for a fiver a year I don’t much care
My AGB membership costs me £47 a year.
I’m not sure what I get for that either. So £52 of my annual £100 subscription which I pay to my Club each year flies straight to organisations that don’t seem to benefit me at all.
I absolutely do not begrudge paying my Club fees. I feel I get real value for money for my Club fees. I enjoy the fellowship and society, the sense of belonging, the shooting days, club comps, inter club comps, social events, BBQs, maintenance days, training and coaching days, beginners courses, have a goes, taster sessions, outdoor leagues, indoor leagues, 252 badges, etc etc. None of the above have any input whatsoever from AGB.
So let’s be honest. AGB exists exclusively to win medals at the Olympics and international events. Medals mean money. Money pays the suits’ salaries. The suits want more money and so the merry-go-round continues.
Like others here I very much doubt that AGB will do anything to help any struggling club at the end of this pandemic. But you can bet your best bow the “elite” archers will be fully supported no matter what.
 

bimble

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The problem with AGB as I see and feel it is one of disengagement. How many of us can honestly say we have feelings of fondness or loyalty to AGB.
Oooo Oooo!! Me! 🥳 but then again, maybe it's because I interact with them more than just complain about them... :rolleyes:
 

Timid Toad

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Most of us don't have any reason to interact with them unless something goes wrong - we don't work for them or provide services to them. We might enter a few competitions.
And when other UK archery organisations do pretty much the same things for their bog standard members without the large fee and no Olympics to support you are always going to get questions (cue Kernolad and his regular 2p).
I'm sure the actual people are lovely. But are they value for money? And does an arrogant email designed to stop us asking questions really make them seem approachable and as if they are serving us or themselves?
 

Graham Smith

Active member
AIUK Saviour
The problem with AGB as I see and feel it is one of disengagement. How many of us can honestly say we have feelings of fondness or loyalty to AGB. I’m a member because I have to be. My county and regional fees come to the princely sum of £5 per annum. I’m not sure what I get from these bodies on a day to day basis but for a fiver a year I don’t much care
My AGB membership costs me £47 a year.
I’m not sure what I get for that either. So £52 of my annual £100 subscription which I pay to my Club each year flies straight to organisations that don’t seem to benefit me at all.
I absolutely do not begrudge paying my Club fees. I feel I get real value for money for my Club fees. I enjoy the fellowship and society, the sense of belonging, the shooting days, club comps, inter club comps, social events, BBQs, maintenance days, training and coaching days, beginners courses, have a goes, taster sessions, outdoor leagues, indoor leagues, 252 badges, etc etc. None of the above have any input whatsoever from AGB.
So let’s be honest. AGB exists exclusively to win medals at the Olympics and international events. Medals mean money. Money pays the suits’ salaries. The suits want more money and so the merry-go-round continues.
Like others here I very much doubt that AGB will do anything to help any struggling club at the end of this pandemic. But you can bet your best bow the “elite” archers will be fully supported no matter what.

You said it all Kerf.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
I did a quick scan of other sports UK associations and club fees to see how they compare. Some membership fees can be quite difficult to find. I tried to list membership that offered liability insurance. Exception was Squash.

UK bowls association £30 associate - requires membership of club Medway £75.00 typically
British cycling £ sporting membership £43-£78 plus club membership variable
National Rifle Association £89.00 Plus club fees variable
National Hockey Association £20 Club £110 Playing fees £230 TOTAL £360
UK Judo Association £39.00 + Club fees variable
British rowing org Racing £60.00, £recreational £30.00 + Club membership variable typically Invicta Rowing £355.00
Table tennis England - Club level £18.00 and National level £38.00 plus club fees variable
Squash England - £15.00 - club fees variable but use often pay as you play each time.

So not radically different from archery apart from rowing and hockey.
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Most of us don't have any reason to interact with them unless something goes wrong - we don't work for them or provide services to them. We might enter a few competitions.
And when other UK archery organisations do pretty much the same things for their bog standard members without the large fee and no Olympics to support you are always going to get questions (cue Kernolad and his regular 2p).
I'm sure the actual people are lovely. But are they value for money? And does an arrogant email designed to stop us asking questions really make them seem approachable and as if they are serving us or themselves?
The value for money thing really is at the root of the matter. The current crisis is hitting people in the pocket and is really making people question the return that they get for their fees.

I've been in two organisations for ages, and while I grumble regularly about AGB I'd really like to keep it that way. But our family is currently getting by on half the income that it had a few months ago and it's probably going to lead to some tough decisions.

But then the truth is it's not really going to be a hard decision at all at the end of the day. When NFF is £30 a year all in and AGB is over a ton it's not going to be a hard decision at all.

And that should worry AGB.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
I’m an IAM member of 22 years and pay £30 a year; I don’t mind that.
I’m a Surf Life Saving Club member (and qualified Beach Lifeguard through it); £25 a year. No problem.

Then there’s NFAS; £30 for me and my son then tiny club fees. I actually LIKE paying that.
So £140 ish for an AGB club that offered almost no progression, no suggestion of competition apart from an annual club tournament, occasional expensive coaching two hours away and not a lot more, it grated. Lovely outdoor range, some nice people but all under the rather oppressive AGB limitations.

For the hobby shooter, AGB simply offers very poor value. We are simply subsidising elite archery and some flashy offices. I think AGB needs a complete restructure into a much more grass roots orientated organisation.
 
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dvd8n

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I’m an IAM member of 22 years and pay £30 a year; I don’t mind that.
I’m a Surf Life Saving Club member (and qualified Beach Lifeguard through it); £25 a year. No problem.

Then there’s NFAS; £30 for me and my son then tiny club fees. I actually LIKE paying that.
So £140 ish for a club that offered no progression, no suggestion of competition apart from an annual club tournament, occasional expensive coaching two hours away and not a lot more, it grated.
For the hobby shooter, AGB simply offers very poor value. We are simply subsidising elite archery and some flashy offices. I think AGB needs a complete restructure into a much more grass roots orientated organisation.
Unfortunately I think that AGB will be getting a restructure whether it wants one or not.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
For the hobby shooter, AGB simply offers very poor value. We are simply subsidising elite archery and some flashy offices.
1. Safeguarding £0.34 2%
2. Case Management Panel£0.12 1%
3. Discipline Panel£0.060%
4. Membership Staff Costs£4.41 22%
5. Insurance£1.69 9%
6. HR£0.16 1%
7. Membership Cards Processing Fees£2.09 11%
8. Big Weekend£0.09 0%
9. Committee Costs£0.29 2%
10. AGM£0.49 2%
11. Governance - Board Costs£0.34 2%
12. Archery UK Magazine Costs£4.82 24%
13. AGIA Arrow Pack Sales - Development£0.02 0%
15. Compound Senior Squad Training£2.08 11%
16. SE - Archery GB Co-Funding£1.74 9%
17. Elite Sport- Archery GB Co-Funding£0.76 4%

So total for supporting elite archery/ membership is £0.76 + £2.08 = £2.84 Don't know about flashy offices as I have never seen them. Obviously staff fees will be expensive. I don't understand why Membership Staff Costs are listed separately but it may be an accounting reason.

What I found interesting about other sports association fees was many offered recreational and competitive levels of membership. This could be a way forward for AGB. Charge more for competitive archers who want to attend county, national shoots and above and charge less for recreational members who only want to shoot at club level. It may even attract more club level shooters and offset the lower competitive fee numbers.
 

KidCurry

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So £140 ish for a club that offered no progression, no suggestion of competition apart from an annual club tournament, occasional expensive coaching two hours away and not a lot more, it grated.
Is that a AGB gripe or a club gripe?
Our club cost £50/yr and for that we get 7 days/week shooting outdoors and some limited indoors, longbow comps, barebow comps, recurve comps, fun shoots, postal shoots and league shoots, to be honest they often get in the way of my practice. 3x coaches that coach for free if you ask,
I shoot at club shoots, inter-county, shoots and national shoots.
So I can understand why archers such as Kernowlad feel it's not good value, but for me it's is really good value.
 

little-else

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Supporter
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Are you really paying £50/yr when the affiliations cost the club £52 or is that £50 on top of your affiliations?
many clubs have a green fee system where members pay a lower annual subs but then pay £x per shoot. That is a system that doesnt take into account establishment costs such as rent or grass cutting, fire insurance and bog paper so is reliant on a number of people paying a lot more than the average. If this is the case then please show a proper costing
As for comps and coaches, at club level they may be free because someone else is paying ( ie the coaches!) but you then pay to enter the comps ( as does everyone else) and they arent part of your club fee so cant be included into the bargain.
What people are griping about is not what represents value for money at the club level but the fact that AGB takes (on average) half of what people pay to their club to shoot and get a magazine in return and a management organized in such a way to deliberately exclude the membership from governing itself.
Years ago my employers decided to rid itself of the amateurs who ran the sporting facilities and appointed professionals to replace the committee that had overseen things for nearly a century. The professionals they brought in were all replaced within about a year as the job they were employed to do kept changing and they couldnt cope.
At the retirement of the "amateur" who was the last manager before the professionals moved in we turned up in suitable attire. the retiring manager wore his olympic bronze medal, another member sported his 2 commonwealth golds and the rest of us had to do with 8 world records between us and GB blazers including the retiree who still coached the GB olympic team for water polo.

Various crises reported in the papers at the moment show that you cant leave things to the professionals when things get tough.
 

KidCurry

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As I said, 'our club fees are £50/yr' not my affiliation fees. All club tournaments are free. So all club shooting and sponsored county shooting cost me about £2.00/week including AGB fees. We don't pay any green fees or face fees. Club coaches and experienced archers give their time free of charge. I pay to enter external comps if not county paid for comps, as I have for every competitive sport competition I have ever entered. In comparison my squash fees are £45 + 5/evening or £95/year inc playing plus any competition fees.
And to be clear the response was to Kerowlad's statement that '... £140 ish for a club that offered no progression, no suggestion of competition apart from an annual club tournament, occasional expensive coaching two hours away and not a lot more, it grated' as a comparison as it read as a club gripe not simply AGB.
Out of interest what do members think they should pay and what do they expect to get for that money? Or is it just that they want to see more AGB involvement at club level? If the second, what involvement would they like to see?
 
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dvd8n

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It's probably not helpful to bring the club fees up, as in general the clubs just charge for their facilities and upkeep of equipment, and tend not to pad their fees. And if you think that the fees are too steep or the culture is not a fit for you at a particular club, you can always shop around for a new club.

But you can't do that for AGB. With AGB you either pay up or stop shooting. It's basically a monopoly.
 

Cereleste

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The prevalence of different levels of membership in other sports reminded me that it is used elsewhere for our sport - USA Archery has several types of membership from £12 to £36;
£12 for a temporary membership that lasts for a single competition (i.e. just for nationals)
£12 for a year-long recreational membership that gives you all the benefits of a full membership except for USA archery competitions and national rankings
£36 for full membership, like AGB membership but they get discounts on flights+hotels for competition travel instead of washing machines and outdoor clothing.
If you shoot with a club and want to enter more than two national competitions then it's more cost effective to be a full member.

They also have a joint agreement for NFAA (their NFAS) members receiving free temporary NAA (their AGB) membership for competitions so you don't need to pay twice if you shoot both styles.
It seems to work pretty well, and it makes it fairer in that those who interact the most by attending competitions pay the most.
 

KidCurry

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...you can always shop around for a new club. But you can't do that for AGB. With AGB you either pay up or stop shooting. It's basically a monopoly.
You can choose to shoot under the NFAS, or some others. You can set up and run an target archery club/association completely outside AGB. You could run target leagues and comps outside AGB. The trouble comes when things get too big and professionals are needed to be paid. It's hard to go backwards by that time.
Introducing membership levels such as supporter, recreational archer, competitive archer, elite archer with a sliding fees scale might be a way of better value across the board. Archers would know what they are, and are not, paying for.

...They also have a joint agreement for NFAA (their NFAS) members receiving free temporary NAA (their AGB) membership for competitions so you don't need to pay twice if you shoot both styles.
It seems to work pretty well, and it makes it fairer in that those who interact the most by attending competitions pay the most.
I don't see why NFAS and AGB cannot do the same with some jigging around and insurance alignment.
 
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bimble

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They also have a joint agreement for NFAA (their NFAS) members receiving free temporary NAA (their AGB) membership for competitions so you don't need to pay twice if you shoot both styles.
It seems to work pretty well, and it makes it fairer in that those who interact the most by attending competitions pay the most.
lol, don't think I'd describe the NFAA as their NFAS... they organise the largest target shoot in the world. It'd be more like AGB split into two, one smaller half running the national squad, and tier 1 level shoots like the National Tour, County Team Shoot, and the other, larger half covering the majority of the regular competitions, majority of clubs, counties, etc... The majority of members would be in the larger half that was looking after domestic archery, and those wanting to push themselves on, especially those wanting to shoot internationally also joining the small half.

There are smaller, 3D field groups in the US such as the IBO which are more closely aligned to NFAS.
 

Kernowlad

Supporter
Supporter
Well it’s would seem that bit isn’t beautiful.
How many happy NFAS “customers” are there compared to AGB ones?
I suspect the percentage of happy NFAS members is way higher.
I get a feeling of patronisation from AGB over the smaller club groups. It’s an elitism that is doing it no favours. Sure I’d like to shoot a bit of target every now and again but if it means rejoining AGB in its current form, it just won’t happen.
No loss if it’s a 44 year old with only a modicum of occasional promise but maybe a bit more of a loss when my 11 year old son who really is quite a promising archer, is also completely put off the current target club system.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
How many happy NFAS “customers” are there compared to AGB ones?
If you had asked me last year I would have said AGB is so big it would take a juggernaut to move it. Perhaps Covid-19 will be that juggernaut for all the wrong reasons :(
 
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