AGB not granting WRS tournament status

MartinGascoigne

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On Oct 25th ArcheryGB announced dates for their 2023 competitions.
Amongst others this includes the National County Team Championships on 23/24 September.
In the description it includes the words "No other World Record Status events will be allowed on this weekend in the UK."

Is this a case of a governing body over-stepping it's authority?
 

Big George

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I find it puzzling that you have to apply for a competition to be World or National record status. In the distant past I competed in athletics, you could get a record at almost any competition provided you had qualified judges, measuring equipment that was certified and an arena that also met the required standard. So why is archery differemt?

In answer to your question, they probably have the ability but as there will be a limit to the numbers shooting at their competition there shouldn’t be a ban on others.
 

Timid Toad

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I find it puzzling that you have to apply for a competition to be World or National record status. In the distant past I competed in athletics, you could get a record at almost any competition provided you had qualified judges, measuring equipment that was certified and an arena that also met the required standard. So why is archery differemt?

In answer to your question, they probably have the ability but as there will be a limit to the numbers shooting at their competition there shouldn’t be a ban on others.
It isn't different. Record status is granted when you have satisfied a series of requirements including all that you state.
In answer to the OP, my guess is that as there have been complaints in the past that top level archers won't compete in the county teams with the excuse being that there are better shoots to go to that will count towards rankings etc. Therefore by removing that excuse they hope to make all archers available that weekend.
 

Big George

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It isn't different. Record status is granted when you have satisfied a series of requirements including all that you state.
In answer to the OP, my guess is that as there have been complaints in the past that top level archers won't compete in the county teams with the excuse being that there are better shoots to go to that will count towards rankings etc. Therefore by removing that excuse they hope to make all archers available that weekend.
It is different, for example, if a club ran an athletic competition they didn’t need for it to be granted record status for an athlete to run/jump/throw a record. If my club wants to host a record status shoot they have to apply for it. I agree there is a slight difference between archery and athletics in that the rules for record shoots are slightly different from a non record shoot but a club should be able to say at this shoot you mark your targets etc. I.e. all actions needed for a record for it to be allowed. As long as the criteria for records are followed then it should be allowed and not “granted” at the behest of others.

A question on the county competition, is it purely an English event or is it UK wide?

If top flight archers don’t want to compete in a team event (and I certainly remember similar happening in athletics) then the organisers should be asking themselves why and trying to make it more attractive, or perhaps pick people who do want to be there. Forcing people to be there because they can’t go elsewhere is a pretty negative view on the event.
 

Rik

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Er, so NI can't have a WRS event that weekend, even though we don't have any county teams...?
 

Timid Toad

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It is different, for example, if a club ran an athletic competition they didn’t need for it to be granted record status for an athlete to run/jump/throw a record. If my club wants to host a record status shoot they have to apply for it. I agree there is a slight difference between archery and athletics in that the rules for record shoots are slightly different from a non record shoot but a club should be able to say at this shoot you mark your targets etc. I.e. all actions needed for a record for it to be allowed. As long as the criteria for records are followed then it should be allowed and not “granted” at the behest of others.

A question on the county competition, is it purely an English event or is it UK wide?

If top flight archers don’t want to compete in a team event (and I certainly remember similar happening in athletics) then the organisers should be asking themselves why and trying to make it more attractive, or perhaps pick people who do want to be there. Forcing people to be there because they can’t go elsewhere is a pretty negative view on the event.
I didn't say I agreed with it. Why not complain to Head Office where they might take your complaint further?
 

Timid Toad

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Er, so NI can't have a WRS event that weekend, even though we don't have any county teams...?
Possibly open to challenge, that one, if they are ineligible to send a team?
 

Whitehart

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I guess that as AGB is affiliated to World Archery and they grant WRS on shoots in the UK, they feel they can do what they like.

Many counties did not attend last year, in my counties case due to the strange mixed format on day 2 meant we did not have enough archers to be competitive in all disciplines for the 2 days and coupling that with the expense to archers to shoot i.e. Hotels travelling having to take holiday it was not worth it to be there for effectively just one day.
 

bimble

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It isn't different. Record status is granted when you have satisfied a series of requirements including all that you state.
In answer to the OP, my guess is that as there have been complaints in the past that top level archers won't compete in the county teams with the excuse being that there are better shoots to go to that will count towards rankings etc. Therefore by removing that excuse they hope to make all archers available that weekend.
This ^ it was noted that a number* of the higher ranked archers decided that a double 720 that was happening the same weekend would be better than representing their county at the premier county shoot (more likely in the hunt for qualifying scores than ranking, double 720 being only a tier 3). Whereas representing the county would both be a boost for county representation and useful practice of team H2H outside of training (how many team events are there after all?).

And we're talking about the end of Sept, it's not like the country is littered with WRS shoots that people would be off to that weekend, it's not like we're talking about the Aug bank holiday or the second weekend of July.

* - there were some who did chose to represent their various counties, and some who were shooting the Welsh Field Champs (my preference)
 

Big George

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I understand the points made, I understand the view of the organisers wanting to get the best archers there, I just don’t happen to agree with approach taken.
I‘d much rather have people on the team who wanted to be there, not because they’d effectively have no choice.
If it were me making the decisions (and it’s never going to be, never did politics as an athlete or an archer, not starting now 🤭) I would look at things like you support the county, the county gives you some financial support (grants, bursaries etc.), part of taking the funding is a commitment for certain events, or take the lesser ranked archers as the team, given them the experience (and support), I’m sure a lot of archers would see representing their county an honour, this could help develop the lower ranks and give them incentives to improve.

Other views may differ.
 

Timid Toad

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That's exactly the problem. The county tournament weekend has been running for 10 years now (?) and even from day one top end archers have excused themselves.
If AGB are trying to push community over individual elitism, maybe this is one of that ways they are doing it.

If this affects you club choices, pick another weekend.
 

bimble

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I‘d much rather have people on the team who wanted to be there, not because they’d effectively have no choice.
Of course they have a choice, archery is never compulsory. Though to be honest I'd rather take a weekend off than shoot a double 720.
 

Whitehart

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Let's be honest though ranking positions are just vanity below the top 8 there is nothing riding on it, the system is open to manipulation where archers can choose the WRS that will give them the most points i.e. a small 720 & H2H run by a local club over a National tour event will yield more points for the average archer. At the moment I am placed twice on the rankings - well understandable with my surname I could get it changed and move up the list but what for. Chasing a Red Rec WA70 badge at the moment is a bigger priority and a tad optimistic given the lack of training I do. As long as it is a WRS shoot it does not matter if it is National or Local.
 

tzadmin

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On Oct 25th ArcheryGB announced dates for their 2023 competitions.
Amongst others this includes the National County Team Championships on 23/24 September.
In the description it includes the words "No other World Record Status events will be allowed on this weekend in the UK."

Is this a case of a governing body over-stepping it's authority?
First, AGB has sole authority on grants if WRS status in the UK so no, it’s certainly not beyond their authority.
But it’s also not arbitrary. AGB have had a long standing policy of preventing conflict between world record status events.The aim was to make sure people could reasonably use every opportunity for a record _and_ to make sure organisers of quite costly events didn’t find their attendance halved because of annalternative event in the next county. That’s obviously dependent on distance so IIRC there is a distance threshold for permitting WRS shoots on the same day. For a National event, though, it’s fairly obvious that other shoots on the same day would either suffer loss of top competitors or prevent folk competing nationally; neither desirable. Granted it’s a pain when a national date lands on a previously planned local date, but I suspect the only useful thing to do is encourage AGB to get national dates announced as early as possible in future.
 
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