Aiming in the shot cycle

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE

jshankar

Member
So back at target shooting since summer this year after a 4 - 5 year break at the NFAS and becoming a snap shooter (!). Worked on anchoring properly etc. The biggest shock to the system was the riser weight. All of lockdown enabled me to work more on form/blank boss to where I'm comfortable for now. But once facing a target it was difficult again. Initially I had my crawl but would shoot "instinctive" or even snap shoot but that's slowly ironing itself out and a vast proportion of shots are as controlled as can be so that appears to go well with the talking to myself part...
One thing that I'm not able to resolve is aiming. Aiming comes after anchor and string alignment but I find (at 18m for eg) when I'm settled in I then have to raise the bow arm/swivel at hip a la longbow to bring lollipop the gold. This gets tiring with a heavy bow and plays on the mind too. Any work around a welcome. ATM I've tried to set the arrow point first then draw but still ends up below the point on. Another is to start high over the target face but that feels awkward (something to work past?). So the oly recurve equivalent would be what is the path of the sight pin before settling around the gold?
Thanks
 

Timid Toad

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You need to build some strength to manage the mass of your bow, so you forget it's there. Get someone to look at your form as well as an early predraw helps share the load across the body which isn't typical of a snap shooting longbower.
 

jshankar

Member
Aiming should be done while drawing, so when at anchor you're 99% there, just a quick check on sight picture (which includes string alignment) and GO!
(sight = vision, not aperture)
Just checking on the finer detail of this. I've actively not looked at the target till I have to aim. This is to work on the TP and work away the urge to release midway in the draw. So when you say aiming while drawing what are you looking at...and between drawing and anchoring to expansion do you look away from the target?
 

jshankar

Member
You need to build some strength to manage the mass of your bow, so you forget it's there. Get someone to look at your form as well as an early predraw helps share the load across the body which isn't typical of a snap shooting longbower.
Let me figure out how to load a vid.
 

jshankar

Member


I had posted about this in the barebow group on FB. I had some feedback on to and some on strength. Timid toads specifics prompted me to look back at this. Thanks. It's rare to get specifics in feedback. Please if you can see the vid and elaborate on the predraw and load balancing I would greatly appreciate.


I think what I was probably looking for with the aiming is to trace the location of the arrow point /sight pin throughout the draw cycle. Appreciate this might be personal but if at anchor it causes a downward movement then everyone must start at the top of the boss right? Just looking to validate that or to see if I'm off track here.

To the point of aiming while drawing I guess that's is more self talk and learnt control then?
 

Big George

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There are some useful videos out there, the Online Archery Academy and Jake Kaminski are two places I get good information from.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
Well here is my tuppence for what it may be worth.
I was lollipopping for about a year which meant I had to drop below the gold and come back up. This caused me issues and finally target panic, not being able to get back up to the gold when returning to centre aiming.
It's probably taken about 8000 arrows but seems thing are back on track. I dropped 4lb off the draw weight and I now drop down into the gold from about the red and can hold the gold again. I tried coming on aim at full draw in the gold but often dropped too low as it was hard work. I have 1.4kg of extra weight on the bow so coming up is hard work.
I started with a 122cm face at 10m. I didn't increase distance until every shot held still for 2 seconds in the ten ring. Moved the face to 15m repeat until I got to 30m then dropped to 80cm at 10m. Any hesitation and I went back to the bigger face. What helped the most was drawing up at 12 o'clock red and slowly, very slowly, dropping into the gold.
I notice in the video you draw above the gold, drop down and come back up while aiming. That would be hard work.

... something else. I noticed that my bow hand was not totally relaxed, probably due to trying to control the aim. It is now completely relaxed and the float in the gold is much reduced and the aim much easier.
 
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jshankar

Member
Well here is my tuppence for what it may be worth.
I was lollipopping for about a year which meant I had to drop below the gold and come back up. This caused me issues and finally target panic, not being able to get back up to the gold when returning to centre aiming.
It's probably taken about 8000 arrows but seems thing are back on track. I dropped 4lb off the draw weight and I now drop down into the gold from about the red and can hold the gold again. I tried coming on aim at full draw in the gold but often dropped too low as it was hard work. I have 1.4kg of extra weight on the bow so coming up is hard work.
I started with a 122cm face at 10m. I didn't increase distance until every shot held still for 2 seconds in the ten ring. Moved the face to 15m repeat until I got to 30m then dropped to 80cm at 10m. Any hesitation and I went back to the bigger face. What helped the most was drawing up at 12 o'clock red and slowly, very slowly, dropping into the gold.
I notice in the video you draw above the gold, drop down and come back up while aiming. That would be hard work.
Thanks that's getting somewhere for me. So my to came from shooting trad instinctive. It took me a couple of years to realise I wasn't anchoring anymore and then quite of lot of work to get that internal commentary. Because I worked on a blank boss I suspect that I've not added the holding on yellow bit but rather finding yellow after drawing and anchoring satisfactorily...
I've also not shot the barebow past 20 yards since starting this summer. I tried a 252 but I ended up not anchoring on some shots which annoyed me but since coming indoor that proportion has reduced significantly. Hopefully will translate when going back outdoor but now I need to work in the bow arm keeping it at gold while drawing instead of dropping. I think I was trying to get a feel for if this dropping during draw is normal. You appear to have had a similar experience. May also go back to the bow arm strength point raised earlier but hopefully it's just more self talk...wonder if that is the more difficult!

So can you clarify a little more on the "drop to gold from red". Were you starting at below gold and going further below. Was the adjustment to now start the draw while at red?
 

Timid Toad

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I had posted about this in the barebow group on FB. I had some feedback on to and some on strength. Timid toads specifics prompted me to look back at this. Thanks. It's rare to get specifics in feedback. Please if you can see the vid and elaborate on the predraw and load balancing I would greatly appreciate.


I think what I was probably looking for with the aiming is to trace the location of the arrow point /sight pin throughout the draw cycle. Appreciate this might be personal but if at anchor it causes a downward movement then everyone must start at the top of the boss right? Just looking to validate that or to see if I'm off track here.

To the point of aiming while drawing I guess that's is more self talk and learnt control then?
There's nothing here that you are doing wrong at all if you are strong enough not to notice the mass of your bow. However, what you are doing is breaking your draw into several stages with what are effectively pauses in between which require you to both support the bow on the left half of your body and probably muck about with your back tension too.

Try this:
Settle your bow hand and get your tab settled on to the string. Fix your head position on the target.
Raise your bow hand and draw hand at the same time, without pausing. Bow hand to the target, vertically lift your draw hand directly to your face. Anchor. It'll feel weird, yes. See where your aim happens to be. The act of a stronger predraw will support the mass of the bow and you'll be steadier.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
So can you clarify a little more on the "drop to gold from red". Were you starting at below gold and going further below. Was the adjustment to now start the draw while at red?
My shot cycle was almost exactly like your video. It was fine for two years. When lollipopping I started about the middle of the gold and allowed the bow to drop below the gold into the red then lifted it during aim. Sometimes it would already be low in the red after the draw. When this became problematic I found I could release on the rise, just as your video shows. If I wasn't stuck there it became a quick jump to the gold and then a release in the red, which is when I decided this was becoming a real problem.
I now draw ensuring the arrow point stays in the red at 12 O'clock (ish). Once at anchor I allow the arrow point to drop slowly into the gold. It has to be slow to prevent it dropping below. Once in the middle I wait two seconds. This allows me to ensure the bow hand is totally relaxed but also ensures I'm not executing a drive-bye release. Two seconds is also plenty of time to check all aspects of alignment. If I drop below the gold I start again.
Once in a while I did drop below the gold and come back up out of interest. This presents two issues. One, although I can now just about do it again, it is more tiring. However, more importantly, with the same crawl the impact will be below the gold often low red at 6 O'clock. If I adjust my crawl for the low impact, when I again drop into the gold and hold steady the impact will be high red. I don't why this is although my theory is the different muscle tensions between dropping to the gold and rising to the gold are responsible.
 
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ThomVis

Member
So when you say aiming while drawing what are you looking at...and between drawing and anchoring to expansion do you look away from the target?
I look to the target from before I raise my bow till the arrow strikes. But my conscious focus is on pushing my bowhand towards the target and creating one fluid "motion" for draw -> anchor -> expansion. I'm aware where my aperture is while drawing and by pushing my bowhand towards the target I'll automatically make corrections on getting it into the yellow. At anchor I'm aware of my sight picture and body feeling. All okay? No; let down. Yes; expand and release.
You can take away the target and blank bale to work on this technique. But in the end there will be a target you want to hit, otherwise what's the point on picking up a bow. But focusing on proper shot execution instead of the target you're trying to hit I think will help in fighting TP.
 

Draven

New member
Try this: before even drawing say to yourself “arrow tip on the gold” (or lollipop or whatever your reference is) and just look at the gold during the shot sequence. The brain is doing all the subtle adjustments to make the intention happen as long as you think to send the arrow “there” - aka where the eyes are looking - once at full draw.
PS You think that not looking at the target before full draw is keeping the TP at bay. This is wrong. Aiming process is complex and the entire shot sequence is part of the aiming process - the stance at full draw aims the arrow in the direction you want to send it (the lollipop is just a checkpoint that your stance at full draw is aiming the arrow in the desired direction). By starting to move the arrow around the gold voluntarily at full draw you are overriding your brain and you are clogging your intention “to send the arrow there” with “I must move the arrow tip there”.
 
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Steve Ruis

Supporter
Supporter
So back at target shooting since summer this year after a 4 - 5 year break at the NFAS and becoming a snap shooter (!). Worked on anchoring properly etc. The biggest shock to the system was the riser weight. All of lockdown enabled me to work more on form/blank boss to where I'm comfortable for now. But once facing a target it was difficult again. Initially I had my crawl but would shoot "instinctive" or even snap shoot but that's slowly ironing itself out and a vast proportion of shots are as controlled as can be so that appears to go well with the talking to myself part...
One thing that I'm not able to resolve is aiming. Aiming comes after anchor and string alignment but I find (at 18m for eg) when I'm settled in I then have to raise the bow arm/swivel at hip a la longbow to bring lollipop the gold. This gets tiring with a heavy bow and plays on the mind too. Any work around a welcome. ATM I've tried to set the arrow point first then draw but still ends up below the point on. Another is to start high over the target face but that feels awkward (something to work past?). So the oly recurve equivalent would be what is the path of the sight pin before settling around the gold?
Thanks
This what I teach my students. I have them line up on target center (lollipop) before drawing and then draw with their eyes closed. They are to open their eyes when they hit anchor and then note where the arrow point is then. Let's say it ended up at 6 o'clock in the blue. This is an indication of what your body is doing during the draw to anchor phases. To compensate for this movement, I suggest they have a starting point of 12 o'clock in the blue. (The same distance out the other side of target center from wherever they ended up.) To test this I have them repeat the process, but the starting POA is 12 o'clock blue. Then they close their eyes, etc. When they open their eyes, their arrow point should be very close to target center.

Obviously this depends upon how consistent they are, but the idea is to minimize the amount of adjustment needed at anchor. Expert Barebow archers can do this and be on point very quickly.

If your bow is a tad heavy, you might want to pick a starting POA that gets you slightly higher than needed so that the final adjustment involves moving downward, with gravity, rather than against it. My students are urged to experiment with this.
 
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