Archery shops - Are they taking the mick? (Online orders)

LionOfNarnia

Supporter
Supporter
However, this will all pale into insignificance if we leave the EU without a deal.
Why?

We have some great domestic makers

The 'muricans do their bit ;)

As do the Koreans & Chinese

Maybe Spigarelli gets too expensive for all but the true fans but for most of us, so what?

No need for remoaniac project fear propaganda here my friend - whatever happens, we're British - we'll survive & thrive!
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Why?

We have some great domestic makers

The 'muricans do their bit ;)

As do the Koreans & Chinese

Maybe Spigarelli gets too expensive for all but the true fans but for most of us, so what?

No need for remoaniac project fear propaganda here my friend - whatever happens, we're British - we'll survive & thrive!
.

Selling only UK products would be great it would solve all the problems of this thread as my stock list would be very short. I think we already do carry or can source most items made in the UK.........

But for a start where are you going to get your arrows from? not just target arrows but POC's:)

Don't think importing direct from China and the USA is the solution unless you are prepared to accept less choice and longer lead-times - not project fear but a reality even today. We already buy from outside the EU and the paperwork and timescales are whats' the word oh yes "fun". That's before we start on spares, warranty returns and customer service. Availability could also be an issue from the USA as we already sell USA made products back to customers in the USA - go figure.
 


brman

Member
.

Selling only UK products would be great it would solve all the problems of this thread as my stock list would be very short. I think we already do carry or can source most items made in the UK.........

But for a start where are you going to get your arrows from? not just target arrows but POC's:)

Don't think importing direct from China and the USA is the solution unless you are prepared to accept less choice and longer lead-times - not project fear but a reality even today. We already buy from outside the EU and the paperwork and timescales are whats' the word oh yes "fun". That's before we start on spares, warranty returns and customer service. Availability could also be an issue from the USA as we already sell USA made products back to customers in the USA - go figure.
I am assuming you currently import stuff through european distributors?
The obvious answer there is that there would then be an opening for a UK based distributor but I can see that that would be a major disruption short term and probably still increased cost and more limited stock longer term.
 


brman

Member
A serious questions as I am at a crossroads as to our future online direction.

Which online model would you prefer.

A) A shop that just lists what they recommend and stock, with the understanding that they can get almost anything else with a lead-time, but to order would require a phone call or visiting the shop.

Or

B) A shop that lists everything in the hope that it will be of interest to someone and lessen the fear of losing a sale, but have to buy it in to order with some doubt as to lead-times (which seems to be the current trend). Although we all know that there are many products we would not really want to sell as they are poor value for money and will cause dealers and customers issues in the very near future.

Thanks
Andrew

However, this will all pale into insignificance if we leave the EU without a deal.
Personally I prefer shops that list what they want to sell. ie option A. If I am shopping online I will just go to the shop that shows stock, splitting orders between shops if necessary. If I am visiting a shop or phoning them up then I am likely to be doing it because I want advise, then I might be prepared to wait for special orders depending what the stuff is.
Shops that list everything but only actually have a small selection really annoy me ;)
I would also say that, unless you have the time for aftersales support steer away from the stuff that is poor value or quality. It might lose you sales but they are probably not sales you want the hassle from?
That was certainly the approach I took when I did domestic electrical work. I refused to supply/fit bits that I thought poor quality as it was just too much hassle (for me AND the customer) dealing with the issues that follow. I can't say I saw any lack of work because of my attitude although it might be different in online sales where it is harder to "sell" the customer service side of things.
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
I am assuming you currently import stuff through european distributors?
The obvious answer there is that there would then be an opening for a UK based distributor but I can see that that would be a major disruption short term and probably still increased cost and more limited stock longer term.
Not everything, a lot is direct Europe/China/USA/Japan to name a few- no substitute from working direct with manufacturers.

The UK market is not really big enough for a UK distributor Merlin/Quicks/Wales do it with some products. It would have to be totally independent of any dealer as history has shown that most UK dealers will not buy from a distributor attached to a UK dealer.....

To be honest I am more interested in peoples thoughts about my two online scenarios.

Like all businesses we will sort out Brexit if and when it happens and move on, leaving the so called experts to do nothing more than spout their opinions and collect their consultancy fees for stating the obvious.
 


Corax67

Active member
Sounds like a good example of taking the mick, and not the sort of service I guess many of us would put up with! One thing, I'm not sure why you'd need to go to your CC issuer for a refund as a matter of course, or did they refuse to cancel the order and refund? I'm pretty sure they cannot do that unless it's an order involving custom one off products, which this clearly wasn't.

Refused to cancel and refund claiming I should expect a delay on an odd order like this ! ? ! ?

That?s why I went down the CC refund route - card company weenspot on as always.



Karl
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Personally I prefer shops that list what they want to sell. ie option A. If I am shopping online I will just go to the shop that shows stock, splitting orders between shops if necessary. If I am visiting a shop or phoning them up then I am likely to be doing it because I want advise, then I might be prepared to wait for special orders depending what the stuff is.
Shops that list everything but only actually have a small selection really annoy me ;)
I would also say that, unless you have the time for aftersales support steer away from the stuff that is poor value or quality. It might lose you sales but they are probably not sales you want the hassle from?
That was certainly the approach I took when I did domestic electrical work. I refused to supply/fit bits that I thought poor quality as it was just too much hassle (for me AND the customer) dealing with the issues that follow. I can't say I saw any lack of work because of my attitude although it might be different in online sales where it is harder to "sell" the customer service side of things.
Thanks

We already do not sell poor quality stuff, yet see lots of it on the shooting lines - but people demand it (I guess they know best???) sometimes even after we have said why - because it is branded........
 


brman

Member
Thanks

We already do not sell poor quality stuff, yet see lots of it on the shooting lines - but people demand it (I guess they know best???) sometimes even after we have said why - because it is branded........
I know the problem ;(
I think that in my game (ie electrical work) it was perhaps easier. I was not short of work and I also had verbal discussions with the customer so it was easy for me to explain why I was not going to use product xyz. I did have customers that really wanted something I didn't like but, if push came to shove, I just told them I would not warranty the product (only my work). Not so easy when just selling stuff I guess.
I guess the question is, if you already take this approach do you see any evidence of it hurting your business?
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
I know the problem ;(
I think that in my game (ie electrical work) it was perhaps easier. I was not short of work and I also had verbal discussions with the customer so it was easy for me to explain why I was not going to use product xyz. I did have customers that really wanted something I didn't like but, if push came to shove, I just told them I would not warranty the product (only my work). Not so easy when just selling stuff I guess.
I guess the question is, if you already take this approach do you see any evidence of it hurting your business?
I do bang my head against "some mad buggers brick wall" at least once a week.

Those that I see improving and at the top of top tens in clubs, counties and competitions still attach themselves to a dealer they can trust, a place they can ask questions receive help, yes even the best archers need help and we are all learning and questioning the latest ideas and reviving many of the old ones all the time. Our shooting ranges are always in use with people trying stuff before they buy, coaches rely on us to supply their beginners with the right equipment all set up correctly, practising or having lessons/coaching. Our phone is always hot with customers asking for help and advice(buying/support and problem solving). Online/mail order we ship all over the world.

We are just 3 archers with many many years of experience and archers travel from all over the UK and further afield for our help and advice - the joy and satisfaction of helping an archer improve and enjoy their archery and see them stay in the sport ideally for a lifetime is in my opinion what we are and should be about. This builds a two way loyalty and these customers benefit far more than just saving a few quid receiving a box that then needs setting up. We are most definitely not there yet but if in the future the market and customers demand that all they want is us working in a shed, shipping goods online and mail order (like the company next door) it will be time to move on to pastures new.

The times I hear an archer say - "thanks I don't know what I would do if you were not here" after bringing in their dry fired compound or piece of broken equipment/arrows, sight, tab release aid etc with a tournament/club night that evening or the next day, bought online elsewhere is becoming more and more common (and not just with us) Or they are at their wits end struggling to understand why their scores are not improving having bought the latest equipment again online and watched all the YouTube videos listened to those in the know in the club and on the brink of giving up. To which I reply "you are lucky that others regularly use us, otherwise we would not be here". blunt I know but the truth.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
A couple of ideas... could be totally unrealistic.... but...
I know a couple of businesses where they found a market for themselves; not a new one, but a different take on an existing one.
It involves second hand cars. The franchised dealers would take in older cars, sell the customer a new one, then end up having to push the older car on to some secondhand dealer they knew.
What they did, was to add an extra string to their bow and become "the second hand dealer" themselves. Now, when the franchise gets an older car in that they cannot sell on; they move it to their other business and sell it from there. They are secondhand dealers of cars that are just outside warranty; often sold as brand new by their partner company.
Is there a market for second hand archery gear? Looks like there is on the internet; but could an archery retailer become the experts in selling on well known archery gear? I know some dealers do have the occasional second hand item, but archery clubs lose archers quite frequently and their kit stays in the house/garage as they can't find a buyer. Could the " leaving archery" people be given some means of selling on their gear to an archery specialist?
My second idea is that in many businesses they work within a quality range; rather than selling every level of equipment.
Do archery retailers feel they could be more effective if they sold, for example, just beginners' gear? Or just top end? Or just the risers and limbs? Specialise in arrows and accessories for arrows?
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Hi Andrew,
Just read your post after sending mine in. It seems to me you are already working along the sort of lines I was suggesting. Offering a service that is not common place.
I mentioned in an earlier post some guys telling me they tried things at a specialist then bought cheaper from on line. They were proud of their methods!! Like they were being shrewd.
Is it possible to have two prices for the same item? One for buying untried. And another for tried and tested and advised upon? And a promise that it can be brought back and bought from them in exchange for something; or just bought back if they leave archery.
 


dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
I think that a number of shops don't do a good job of managing customer's expectations.

The biggest complaint that I hear about online shops is misrepresenting an item as being 'in stock in the warehouse' when what they really mean is 'I can get it from the distributor'. If the website gives the impression that an item is on the shelf then the customer can reasonably expect the item to be in the post the following day, and if it's not they'll be disappointed.

I think that the two things that an on-line company could usefully do to improve customer relations are:

- be honest about what is in stock, and if something isn't then give a realistic lead time for supply
- give the customer the option of dispatching items as they become available (and adjust p&p accordingly) or wait for all items to be in stock before dispatch

The customer then understands when items will arrive.

They may lose a bit of trade but they won't get the 'I'm never ordering from XXXXXX again' effect.
 


jonUK76

Member
I think that the two things that an on-line company could usefully do to improve customer relations are:

- be honest about what is in stock, and if something isn't then give a realistic lead time for supply
- give the customer the option of dispatching items as they become available (and adjust p&p accordingly) or wait for all items to be in stock before dispatch

The customer then understands when items will arrive.

They may lose a bit of trade but they won't get the 'I'm never ordering from XXXXXX again' effect.
I agree 100%. Just simple honesty about whether something is genuinely in stock, or being ordered from the manufacturer/distributor and realistic approximations on time scale would make a lot of difference, with the companies that use the 'order on demand' model.

Refused to cancel and refund claiming I should expect a delay on an odd order like this ! ? ! ?

That’s why I went down the CC refund route - card company weenspot on as always.



Karl
I'm surprised this lot whoever they are, are in business. They clearly do not understand or abide by the Consumer Contract Regulations which is law and not optional - dodgy.
 


brman

Member
I think that a number of shops don't do a good job of managing customer's expectations.

The biggest complaint that I hear about online shops is misrepresenting an item as being 'in stock in the warehouse' when what they really mean is 'I can get it from the distributor'. If the website gives the impression that an item is on the shelf then the customer can reasonably expect the item to be in the post the following day, and if it's not they'll be disappointed.

I think that the two things that an on-line company could usefully do to improve customer relations are:

- be honest about what is in stock, and if something isn't then give a realistic lead time for supply
- give the customer the option of dispatching items as they become available (and adjust p&p accordingly) or wait for all items to be in stock before dispatch

The customer then understands when items will arrive.

They may lose a bit of trade but they won't get the 'I'm never ordering from XXXXXX again' effect.
I think that last bit is what some shops forget. If you annoy a customer (like Karl's example above) then you are likely to lose them for life and possibly a few others by word of mouth. If you don't get an order because you are honest about delivery times then you only lose them for that order......
 


Whitehart

Well-known member
Hi Geoff thanks for that.

We have tried two prices but it is far to complicated and always causes problems at the till.

2nd hand cars is currently a bad example because of all the private leasing, dealers are now chock a block with 3 year old cars, I am told to keep 2nd hand prices stable most are shipped out of the EU, with just enough left to sustain the 2nd hand market :)
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Second hand cars may be a bad example to use; but what about second hand archery equipment? I know some clubs have secondhand items they try to sell on for an archer who has left archery. I knew an archer near me who used to buy items like that and became well known as seller. It seemed to work for him. If those items could be sent to an archery specialist there would be more items on sale and more choice for new archers looking for good stuff at a reasonable price. Better and safer than looking on non specialist sites on the net.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I only buy secondhand cars. They are better than the ones I could afford to buy new.
I know archers who won't accept a string that I would make for them; they need it to come from a shop that sells archery equipment. How could a string made at home be any good?
They won't buy a sight if it doesn't have lots of features on it. And they are struggling with 252 at 20y?
Hey ho! The world has moved on.
 


Kernowlad

Member
I buy both new and secondhand cars; depends on value for me not cost.

I have a ?shed made? bike light that is incredibly well made by an ex aircraft engineer; still holds its own against new stuff (1700 lumens) 7 years after I bought it (admittedly for a lot).

I?ve heard your strings are pretty good 😉
 


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