Arrows going left

nbuuifx

Member
Trying to sort my daughter's bow out.

She is currently having to put the aperture all the way to the left to get the arrows in the centre of the target.

She shoots quite narrow arrows. I haven't got them to hand at the moment but they are carbon alloys and the size where the nock slots straight into the end without an adapter etc.

She is right handed, and isn't a bad archer, she has JMB status and has had good coaching, I can't see anything obvious that she is doing wrong.

When check her bow over the only thing that I can see is that the shibuya rest is stopping the pressure button from working, the thickness of the magnet section at the back is as thick as the plunger sticks out. I was going to try moving it in slightly further but the magnet stops this. Obviously as soon as the wire starts to move it is going to push any part of the arrow that is left too.

What have we got wrong to make the rest cause this problem? She did recently use a plastic Hoyt rest whilst I was waiting for a replacement arm for the shibuya one and the left right issue was the same although I didn't change anything else, so if the button was out too far then that would have still been an issue.

Any thoughts would be appreciated
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
Trying to sort my daughter's bow out.


When check her bow over the only thing that I can see is that the shibuya rest is stopping the pressure button from working, the thickness of the magnet section at the back is as thick as the plunger sticks out. I was going to try moving it in slightly further but the magnet stops this. Obviously as soon as the wire starts to move it is going to push any part of the arrow that is left too.
This is the problem arrow bouncing off the rest. you dont say which riser if a wooden bow then go back to the Hoyt Rest and re tune arrows could be too weak????
 

nbuuifx

Member
Sorry the details of the bow are:

Riser: Mybo Rio 23"
Limbs: Fivics Vellator Carbon 26lb
Arrows: Cartel Carbon Alloy - Spine 1050
Arrow Length: 27"
Rest: Shibuya Ultima
Sight: Shibuya Carbon Ultima II

The limbs are pretty much wound in all the way (one is all the way in, the other is slightly out to give the correct tiller).
 

Whitehart

Well-known member
No problem

guess draw length between 25"-26"

I would set the centreshot so arrow tip to left of string but still look like it is touching, with medium spring I would set it a 1/2 turn off medium or start at medium and see what happens with a balanced bareshaft test at 18m. This will tell you what is really happening with arrow spine and nocking point height - with this setting you should not have a clearance issue.

Again guessing the button centreshot was moved in and button spring softened off as arrows flying too far left which would indicate shafts too stiff.
 

nbuuifx

Member
In all honesty Covid happened! Perhaps throw in a mix of growth spurts too.

She was shooting 500 shots minimum per week, and doing training exercises three times a week with regular coaching at the club and at Lilleshall, but things tapered off a little during lock downs what with little club time and no competitions.

She kept some practise up, don't get me wrong she is still shooting JMB scores with it setup like this, but in that time we went through various arrows as she grew. Other than the sight aperture being well over to the left, there isn't really a massive issue, but I'm keen to sort the reasons why as it may be costing some points somewhere. With no competitions for a good while, I've kind of neglected her bow tune and got her to just concentrate on getting good shot technique - most of what she has shot for the last 18 months has been <5m in the garage (hence the cheaper arrows as she went through a few!)

I don't think the arrows were contacting the rest, but the centre shot was a little too far to the left. Adjusting the centre shot to the right causes the arrow to contact the magnet instead of the pressure button. It may be though that the arrow was contacting the magnet before as the pressure button went in. It almost feels as though I need the entire string to be further to the left, so the button can be too, but I don't think I can achieve that. My understanding of the limb alignment is that if I move both over to the left, I'd get a bit of a banana shape as the alignment pivots - please correct me if I'm wrong though! As that could be a solution, although then the string wouldn't run down the centre of the riser.

Otherwise I'm confused at how it can need the button to be so far in to get the centre shot correct. My initial thought was down to them being such narrow arrows, but then I thought surely my big fat arrows would require the plunger to be further in? And I don't get any issues with mine, with the same rest (different riser and limbs though)
 

nbuuifx

Member
Yes draw length is closer to 25" even though arrow length is 27" - I'm not sure what difference this has on spine selection.

Using the Easton tool. It gives a spine of 0.920-1.000 for ACE or 0.92-1.02 for ACC

Using the Low Poundage chart, and an OTF lb of 24lbs, then she is between Y5 and Y6.

This gives an ACE of 1.25 or an ACC of 1.150 - 1.3

So from the main tool, the Cartel 1050 arrows are slightly weak, but on the low poundage chart they are slightly stiff. Not massively though. I chose these arrows partly as they were the weakest shaft that cartel did in that range, and partly due to the fact she has run out of adjustment on these limbs anyway, so we will probably change these from 28lb limbs to either 30 or 32lb limbs shortly - which will increase the OTF poundage.
 

Steve1968

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Has your daughter changed her head position or grip on the riser? With a lack of shooting and coaching perhaps she has moved head position or grip without realising it.
 

nbuuifx

Member
Has your daughter changed her head position or grip on the riser? With a lack of shooting and coaching perhaps she has moved head position or grip without realising it.
I don't think so, her head position was certainly excellent. I was watching her head as one of her targets is to not move her head on release, which is proving very difficult, she gets a slight movement forwards on release but otherwise is rock steady with great positioning.

Hand grip didn't show anything obvious but I wasn't looking closely at it, will watch that closer tomorrow.

She's had coaching recently since the gradual reopening. She's been working on a few targets but nothing that would obviously move the arrows. The coaches did comment on her bow tune though and the aperture being so far left. Various things were picked up like the tiller, nocking point, and centre shot.

I've been fully over it, and got everything to 'default settings'. Positive tiller, nocking point +4mm from level, bracing height as per manufacturers guidance, limb alignment all straight. The only thing I was struggling to set is the centre shot.

So forgetting anything else, the end of the point is to the left of the string as you would expect for a RH archer but I want to pull it closer to the string but physically can't which doesn't seem right to me.

As I said before initially I thought that it must be the tiny arrows but, as I thought about it more, they should improve things not make them worse.

So really I need any thoughts as to why it would get so close to the riser to get the centre shot correct, I'm thinking of the centre shot was further to the right, then it would move the arrows right. I've heard of people running their bows to be to the right if the string because they prefer it like that, it because it tunes their particular setup better, but I can't see how that would be possible as I can't get it even level.
 

Corax67

Well-known member
You look to have covered all the equipment setup checks but what about the physical shot process.

Have a look at your daughters bow arm - elbow rotation - has she stopped rotating her elbow joint? This can have a significant effect on arrow impact to a point where the arrows miss the boss altogether. In a right handed archer the arrows will generally go wide left.

Has your daughter changed her stance? Place a marker line across the shooting line to ensure consistent foot placement, if she is torquing her core this will again affect the arrow impact point.

If Covid has impacted on the amount she shoots then is she experiencing draw finger tenderness? This can lead to an incorrect hook setting and / or plucking the string on release to subconsciously remove the discomfort.

Where is your daughters draw hand finishing up after the shot release? Is the right arm following around the face / neck? This will show what muscle groups are engaging during the draw & shot cycle and can indicate whether the bow arm is doing things it shouldn’t such as actively pushing the bow rather than resisting the draw pressure.

Just something to mull over - been looking into biomechanics a lot over the past few months not having been able to shoot due to injury and it’s a fascinating subject.

Perhaps worthwhile coming down a step in limb weight and shooting a bit of blank boss for a while to have a good look at her form & get confidence back.

Karl
 

nbuuifx

Member
You look to have covered all the equipment setup checks but what about the physical shot process.

Have a look at your daughters bow arm - elbow rotation - has she stopped rotating her elbow joint? This can have a significant effect on arrow impact to a point where the arrows miss the boss altogether. In a right handed archer the arrows will generally go wide left.

Has your daughter changed her stance? Place a marker line across the shooting line to ensure consistent foot placement, if she is torquing her core this will again affect the arrow impact point.

If Covid has impacted on the amount she shoots then is she experiencing draw finger tenderness? This can lead to an incorrect hook setting and / or plucking the string on release to subconsciously remove the discomfort.

Where is your daughters draw hand finishing up after the shot release? Is the right arm following around the face / neck? This will show what muscle groups are engaging during the draw & shot cycle and can indicate whether the bow arm is doing things it shouldn’t such as actively pushing the bow rather than resisting the draw pressure.

Just something to mull over - been looking into biomechanics a lot over the past few months not having been able to shoot due to injury and it’s a fascinating subject.

Perhaps worthwhile coming down a step in limb weight and shooting a bit of blank boss for a while to have a good look at her form & get confidence back.

Karl
Stance looks consistent and good, no noticeable change. Hand position looks good, with good follow through and fingers remaining in the same position. Bow hand, I didn't check too much, but did notice that she wasn't letting it go as much as I'd like although I don't think is leading to torquing etc.

However I still think it is a physical setup problem. When I look at my centre shot, the tip of my arrow is just next to the string, with my daughters there is a little gap. On mine (Hoyt Horizon with Shibuya Ultima Rest) - I still have room to move it over towards the riser further and could come the other side of the string with the point if I want to but I just can't move hers any further and it quite possible is already contacting the magnet at the rear depending on how much the pressure button actually moves in.

As I see it the only thing that can be is that the string is too close to the riser (in the left to right direction). I can't see what I can do to change that though.
 

AndyS

Supporter
Supporter
The Easton spine chart may not apply to the Cartels.
Alternative sell the Cartel triples, and on the product page it says " Measuring the Spine: For the Triple range of arrows, the spine is determined as the weight required to deflect the shaft by 20mm with the shaft supported at points 500mm apart. " so not the usual method.
A bit of googling will find several people claiming very different spines for Easton & Cartel shafts with the same number on the shaft.
Anyone got access to a spine tester and some 1050 cartels?
 

nbuuifx

Member
The Easton spine chart may not apply to the Cartels.
Alternative sell the Cartel triples, and on the product page it says " Measuring the Spine: For the Triple range of arrows, the spine is determined as the weight required to deflect the shaft by 20mm with the shaft supported at points 500mm apart. " so not the usual method.
A bit of googling will find several people claiming very different spines for Easton & Cartel shafts with the same number on the shaft.
Anyone got access to a spine tester and some 1050 cartels?
Will that isn't very useful of them!

Although it still doesn't get over the fact that the centre shot is too close.

She also has some carbon one arrows which she isn't allowed to shoot outdoors at the club, when using these the aperture stays in the same spot (at 20y). I'll have to check the spine of these but from memory I think they were 1300
 

Stretch

Well-known member
1. What does the bareshaft say?
2. How do the arrows fly?
Because if they are all fine, does it matter? String alignment or minor physique changes causing the move.

... if not....

3. is the tab leather still soft and supple?
4. Does she still have good clearance/light contact on her chest guard?

If she is still shooting good scores it is not going to be a major form issue.

Stretch
 

nbuuifx

Member
Bareshaft testing will be one of the next tests, arrow flight isn't perfect but not horrendous either. At 20yds+ the arrows stick out of the target nice and straight, at very short distance they land with the point to the left of the fletchings.
 

Steve1968

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
Have you used the Beiter limb gauges or marked the centre of the limbs to check alignment?

If the limb alignment is correct, I would suggest setting the centre shot as you would normally set it, i.e arrow tip slightly to the left of the string.
If you still have the same issues, perhaps you need to change the arrow rest to a thinner one, not all risers have the same amount of cut out, so the amount of centre shot adjustment will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Also ask your daughter about the pressure point on her bow hand, slight differences can also send arrows right or left. You mentioned that she is not letting the bow go as much as she did, perhaps this is causing a slight torque of the bow which would be difficult to see.
 

nbuuifx

Member
What about limb alignment? At zero offset from centre shot, the arrow should be nowhere near the magnet of the rest and that is independent of arrow spine.
Yes that is exactly what I can't figure out, I'll answer about limb alignment in more detail in my next reply below.
 

nbuuifx

Member
Have you used the Beiter limb gauges or marked the centre of the limbs to check alignment?

If the limb alignment is correct, I would suggest setting the centre shot as you would normally set it, i.e arrow tip slightly to the left of the string.
If you still have the same issues, perhaps you need to change the arrow rest to a thinner one, not all risers have the same amount of cut out, so the amount of centre shot adjustment will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Also ask your daughter about the pressure point on her bow hand, slight differences can also send arrows right or left. You mentioned that she is not letting the bow go as much as she did, perhaps this is causing a slight torque of the bow which would be difficult to see.
They are currently marked down the centres using masking tape and centre marks. Alignment was ever so slightly out on the top limb but correcting it made no difference. They look to be spot on to me and run through the centre of the tiller adjustment locking screws.

If I backed off the left adjustment screw say one turn on both limbs and tightened the right one turn, would this move them over in a straight line? Or would I get a banana shape? Would this have a negative effect on anything else if it was straight? It is the only thing I can think to do.
 
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