Bare shaft test for compound?

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Thorvald

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Just wondering: Would you use or would you not at all use bare shaft test for compound bow, shot with mechanical release? And if not, why not? I ask, because I have seen one of the others in the club doing it, but it looks like he cannot get it to work. So I was just wondering if it at all makes sense to use bare shaft tuning, for a compound bow, with mechanical release?
 

bimble

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nope, I'd do a French Tune to sort my rest left/right; then I'd tweak my poundage up & down a few pounds to see how that affects group size. If I really wanted to check my nocking point height I might do a paper tune to start with, not to worry about a bullet hole, but just to make sure my nock wasn't low.
 

geoffretired

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I would test my nocking point using bare shafts. I would also use it to see if my hand was causing bow hand torque on occasions and try to refine my grip on the bow to reduce the bad shots.
 

Thorvald

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Ok, thank you for the answers. So, so far 50/50... :) For me: I have never used bare shaft test for compound, but I understand it can be one way to fine tune nock point (or arrow rest) height. I think my step by step setting up a compound bow would be the following. But first I would of course decide what arrows I would use for the bow and get them as close as possible to optimum spine, for example with Archers Advantage, before I buy the parts and build them. And then that's it (no switching back and forth between different arrows at least not while doing the tuning). One can of course use different arrows for one bow, for different purposes, but should tune mainly with one set of arrows (for example "long distance" outdoor target arrows) and accept that the others would be a tad different tune, but probably within what is acceptable.
  1. Setup arrow rest / arrow perpendicular / 90 degrees to string with level tools (I link below to my prefered tool, that the said archer has).
  2. Be sure while doing this that the arrow runs in the same height as the plunger hole / berger hole, especially on a new bow, where you are also doing the nocking points / D-loop.
  3. Setup sideways arrow rest alignment / centershot, for example with laser tool.
  4. Step 1 - 3 = the static / theoretic centershot vertically and horizontally.
  5. Maybe if one wants, check and fix cam alignment / cam lean at full draw, for example with the same laser tool. (Optional step, depending on how deep / technical one wants to dive into it).
  6. Paper test from 2 m and 8 m for example, maybe even up to longer distances like 18 m, to fine tune the dynamic centershot - or just to test if the dynamic centershot is about where it should be. And in this test maybe tweak with the arrow's dynamic spine in different ways.
  7. Maybe if one wants, do the bare shaft test, at different distances to fine tune nock point or arrow rest position or dynamic spine (a little more or less point weight). Actually not sure if the latter is relevant for bare shaft test, but I heard our coach suggest that to said archer. But if bare shaf test to some extend replace paper test, maybe yes.
  8. Do the French tune method (a new word for me - only learned about this a few days ago). - If one is skilled / experienced enough to get decent groups at both 20 m and for example 90 m or how long distance one can get a trustable grouping. The more difference between the two distances, the better. Plus one needs to have a sight and arrow rest that is easy to micro tune.
The tool I would use for all the basic setup like centershot and cam alignment: OMP Tru-center laser alignment tool.
 

bimble

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Do the French tune method (a new word for me - only learned about this a few days ago). - If one is skilled / experienced enough to get decent groups at both 20 m and for example 90 m or how long distance one can get a trustable grouping. The more difference between the two distances, the better. Plus one needs to have a sight and arrow rest that is easy to micro tune.
The French Tune is more likely to be done at distances like 3m & 50m, because you don't want to change your sight elevation whilst doing it so you need two distances that use the same sightmark.

And having a rest that has a micro-tune ability does make it easier though isn't necessary if you're careful.
 

jerryRTD

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Paper tuning is all I require. Iusually set the bow up for an 1/8 inch tail high tear. I have found in the past that french or walk back tuning is too much affected by windage.
 

Howi

Member
I have just done a quick search for compound bow tuning methods.

Static center shot
Paper tuning
Tiller tuning
Line tuning
Camera tuning (never heard of that one!)
Torque tuning
Walk back tuning
French tune
Bare shaft tuning
Micro tune draw length
micro tune nock point
micro tune stabilisers
Arrow tuning
group tuning

I am sure there must be plenty more.

At some point in every archers life they will look to "Tuning their bow" in order to improve their performance/scores, forgetting the fact
archery is 95% archer and 5% equipment. It is far easier to spend time/money/effort in the chasing the perfect bow setup than spending time and effort in "Tuning" the archer.
Most archers soon get to a point where they do not seem to improve or don't get the scores they think they should be getting.
Unfortunately they quickly forget the basics.
They turn to tuning methods they may not fully understand, so they can blame an "Untuned bow" for their ails.

So, ignore the fact they cannot shoot a consistant group at 90m/100y, they tune the hell out of the bow, jumping from one method to another and in most cases undoing what they have already done.

BEFORE you undertake ANY tuning method make sure you can group reasonably well at least at 60yds where NO shot should be outside Red(7 ring ), otherwise you are chasing rainbows.
Once, and if your shots are more consistant then I would recommend starting with the static center shot using whatever method/device you desire (discussions about this on another thread on this forum).
I would say my method has proved (to me) that it is reliable and accurate to a level before micro tuning using the French tune method and cost NOTHING (but then I would say that wouldn't I ).
All/most of the other methods of tuning may be more suited to the TOP LEVEL archer where they have the experience to spot any positive OR NEGATIVE issues from adapting that particular tuning method (on top of the basic tuning described).

If you have static center shot sorted and a nocking point at or just above 90 deg to the string so the arrow is either horizontal or pointing downwards slightly ( I would suggest no more than 2 to 3mm max). Then any further tuning should wait until you are at a level where you could be picked for team GB and you would then be able to take advantage of the top level archers and coaches to get the best out of your equipment.

You can fine tune the nocking point if you wish at a later stage although I doubt you would gain much unless it was way out to start with.

UNLESS you are capable of shooting reasonably well, there is not much point in doing any of the tuning methods.
Instead tune the archer, get someone (Who knows what they are talking about) to look over your form, take video if necessary to enphasise the point.
Unfortunately, this requires the archer to take notice of what has been told/shown and THAT can be a whole new ball game.
We ALL think we are doing everything right and do NOT like being told otherwise, bite your tongue, accept what people are telling you and try and change your technique to suit.
I have seen so many archers who make the most basic of errors (YES! Me too!) such as not listening to the clicker.
The clicker goes off but they do NOT release, the drawing hand oscillates back and forth half a dozen times before they then perform a dead release.
Tell most archers they have a dead release and they will probably think you are talking rubbish.
The dead release also applies to a lot of compound archers as well!
Show them via video, they can't hide from that.

Now I am sure there are archers on here who are saying what the **** do I know about anything?
Well, all the above is my opinion, take it how you will, frankly I don't care, you may have your own established method, if so, good for you.
If you are new to tuning you can take what I have said at face value or ignore it completely, thats up to you.
Get the static center shot somewhere near and leave the rest for later, while you get the archer tuned.
The problem with having so many different methods of tuning is that some will undo what you have already done and to me that can't be a good thing necessarily.
However you do it, whatever method/methods you choose, I wish you all well in your endeavours.

Good shooting and if someone who knows what they are talking about offers you advice at the field, at least have the curtesy to listen to them, especially if they can shoot better than you.
 

geoffretired

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Howi, that is a great post; so much truth in it and good advice,to boot.Nice one!
I think that as beginners we just shoot for the enjoyment and then see better arhers and learn( for better or worse) that we may have the wrong spine arrows or the nocking point is too high/low. Watch a bare shaft test or be watched doing a test and chances are the nocking point will be moved and the results change. Change arrows for a better matched spine and the flight is better spine. They seem to come out straight ,now!
I can still remember the first time I shot a friend's X 7's and getting smooth arrow flight without the usual kick I saw shooting my own arrows.
In my head, the better flight seemed like I was shooting better!! I certainly felt good about shooting them.
In my head, better flight, was better shooting! If the arrows fly better ,they will group better, seems logical! Or it did at the time.
After that initial attempt at "tuning"( if that is what it was) could improve arrow flight, I was tempted to believe that other twaeks would make the flight even better still.... and make the groups better as a result. It is a way of thinking that I found easy to carry over for years to come.
It is as if my thinking set off on the wrong track, but the improved flight, disguised the facts. The wrong thinking just continued for other tuning details, and I never really get out of the habit.
 

Thorvald

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Yeah, I agree with you, both Howi and Geoffretired - In general I also don't want to tune a lot. I think in general I will be happy with set the basics correctly, do the french tune and see if any sideways changes of arrow rest is necessary. If not (and it was not) leave it as it is and just adjust the height of the sight for the different distances. Another time, do a paper test - mostly to check how things look and if I should change something significant for example with the arrows. But only if the test shows that they are way too stiff or weak. To see if the theory (calculation of arrows) seems to be about right.

But else, if it shoots about fine, then I would probably not benefit a lot from fine tuning a lot. Because even if the arrows is a little too stiff and make a kick in the air and don't fly straight and smooth - they still hit fine and I still get quite decent results.
 

Thorvald

Active member
The French Tune is more likely to be done at distances like 3m & 50m, because you don't want to change your sight elevation whilst doing it so you need two distances that use the same sightmark.

And having a rest that has a micro-tune ability does make it easier though isn't necessary if you're careful.
I am not sure I would agree about the 3 and 50 m example. Because you cannot avoid to move the sight up/down from 3 m to 50 m. Plus I don't think it matters if you move the sight up/down for the short and for the long distance while doing the french tune. Plus if you shoot at a very short distance I don't think you will see if you need to move the sight sideways, because it is too easy to hit the center at such a short distance. So I would think that the short distance should be 12-20 m, so that you can actually see if your grouping is to the left or right. And then the long distance at 50-90 m - whatever distance you feel your grouping is decent enough, to be able to see if the grouping in general is to the right or left. But the shorter long distance you choose, the shorter short distance you should probably use - but not under 10 m I think. Because the bigger difference between the short and the long distance, the more accurate the result of the french tune will be - the more accurate one will get the dynamic centershot. That is how I think around it.
 

Shirt

Well-known member
I am not sure I would agree about the 3 and 50 m example. Because you cannot avoid to move the sight up/down from 3 m to 50 m. Plus I don't think it matters if you move the sight up/down for the short and for the long distance while doing the french tune.
Your 3m and 50m sight mark are going to be the same. Shoot 50m, then go stand at 3m and shoot an arrow, walk forwards or back a small amount until it's hitting perfectly behind the aiming dot. At 3m you're not looking to 'hit the centre', you should be aiming at an arrow hole in the target face and unhappy unless you hit inside that hole.

If you tune while moving your sight, you are assuming you've set the sight vertical and square, and any left / right movement is purely a result of arrow rest rather than a blend of arrow rest and your bubble being off.

So you do the 3 & 50 to get a good starting point, once that works then do a walkback like you've described to make sure it's working at all distances (including the longer stuff) and to confirm your sight is set up properly.
 

Thorvald

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(1) Your 3m and 50m sight mark are going to be the same. ... (2) At 3m you're not looking to 'hit the centre', you should be aiming at an arrow hole in the target face and unhappy unless you hit inside that hole.

(3) If you tune while moving your sight, you are assuming you've set the sight vertical and square, and any left / right movement is purely a result of arrow rest rather than a blend of arrow rest and your bubble being off.

(4) So you do the 3 & 50 to get a good starting point, once that works then do a walkback like you've described to make sure it's working at all distances (including the longer stuff) and to confirm your sight is set up properly.
(1): I don't think so. Maybe for some, but not for all. I have heard it before: "your 5 m and 30 m sightmark is the same", But for me no. In my 3D setup all distances up to 12 m is one sight pin, then I have a sight pin at 18 m, 24 m and 30 m.

(2): Understand what you mean.

(3): Understand what you mean (1st, 2nd and 3rd axis). However I am not sure how big issue it is. When I was grouping around the center at 20 m, I set the sight there. Shot at 90 m - and the group was low, but in vertical line with the center, so I was happy with that. Maybe I was lucky, maybe the CBE TEK Target is just a good sight. I don't know - but I get your point. I just don't believe that my 50 m sight mark will be the same as at appr. 3 m. But could be fun to test.

(4): Ok - maybe. ;)
 

geoffretired

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Thorvald, at short range the sight marks are lower than the indoor competition distance because the arrow starts its path from about 10cm below the eye line. with such a short distance to get the arrow to coincide with the eye line, tharrow needs to be poiting upwards when on the bow. That requires a low sight setting.
However, 3m may not match for you... but it is easy enough to set your sight for 50m then do a test 1m intervals from 3m to 10m and see when the 50m setting matches. You may find the 5m matches the 50m... still good enough for the test suggested.ny HOwi.
 

Howi

Member
Just to catch up with where this is going with regard to now moving the sight between long and short distances. I have known about this method for quite a while but found 50m not a long enough distance and 3m too short. If I was doing the French tune at our field I would use 20y and 100y if targets were set up for those distances (usually are).
I can shoot (safely) at home at 15y so use this as my short distance and usually start at 60y at the field then 80y and 100y, then back to 15y when I get home.
If you have set up the static center shot, you should not have to do many itterations before you have dynamic center shot set optimally.
The ONLY problem with using 80y and 100y is that we do not have many windless days, then, usually 60y has to surfice untill a rarity comes along.
All interesting stuff, perhaps one day the "ultimate guide to bow tuning" will come along with all the detailed steps and methods used and what order of course, then we would have no excuse for not shooting, rather than the excuse "I'm tuning'. :rolleyes:
 

bimble

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(1): I don't think so. Maybe for some, but not for all. I have heard it before: "your 5 m and 30 m sightmark is the same", But for me no. In my 3D setup all distances up to 12 m is one sight pin, then I have a sight pin at 18 m, 24 m and 30 m.
as all you're adjusting is horizontal adjustments (rest L/R: sight L/R) all you need is a vertical line (target face folding in half for example) so 3m/50m should be good enough whatever your setup is. It doesn't matter if your 3m/50m sightmarks are not exactly the same because you're trying to get the arrows on the same vertical line.
 

Thorvald

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#Geoffretired. From a technical / ballistical point of view, I kind of understand what you mean and it might be correct. For some - and for some maybe not. But as you say, it is easy enough for each archer to test, if one is interested. I my case - with my 3D sight, my 12 m sight pin, that goes for all distances up to 12 m, sits a little higher than the 18 m sight mark.

But yes, could be funny enough to test, with my target sight, with the 50 m sight mark, when I am sure it sits correct and then see if I can get a short distance to hit with that sight mark.

Because I also kind of understand why it could be a benefit not to have to move the sight up/down, between the short and long distance, while doing the french tune test. And then after that test try 60 m, 70, 80 and 90 m on a day with no wind - to see if this is about right.

#Howi: Ok - we agree with each other. Both with regards to that it in theory would be best to have as much as possible (i.e. the longest distance one can shoot trustable groups) distance between the short and long distance, because then fine tuning the dynamic center shot is as fine as possible. But that the short distance should not be too short. (Unless perhaps you throw the extra step in and testing at two distances where the sightmark is the same, if possible for the single archer). Also what I saw was that with the static centershot set as good as possible, I agree that the number of iterations would be less. In my case just one "itereation", because I didn't have to move my arrow rest at 90 m (and it fits at shorter distances as well like 70 m etc.).

#Bimble: Yes, I agree. With my 20 m set sideways so I hit around the center, then I shot at 90 m. I didn't hit the center, I hit low - but in a vertical line with the center. And then I only moved the sight, to get the arrows around center at 90 m - and was happy with that. :)

So with this I am pretty happy with this thread and hope that others finds it useful as well. We got a bit off-topic, but the answer to the question: "Can it make sense to do the bare shaft test with compound bow, shot with mechanical release", is yes, if you want to use that method.
 
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