Barebow collapse

I find it hard to describe how I do it.
Which hopefully means it's ingrained and I am not having to think about it.
I keep pulling whilst I settle at aim for a couple of seconds plus.
Once I feel happy, I pull through .
Sorry if no help. At first you get a few high arrows. After a while you will tame the process.
 

8ballali

Member
I used to suffer from creep, and occasional collapse. I decided to make changes.
I stopped lining up my toes, giving me an open stance, and meaning I was drawing in front of my chest. I'm 5'-8", and had a 31-1/2" draw.
I changed to turning my head, and lining up my shoulders. This puts my right foot slightly further back, giving a closed stance, with me drawing closer to my bowarm, and shortening my draw length significantly. This also meant a reduction in the draw weight, due to the shorter draw length. Ever since, I've Been able to hold for longer, and be more stable. Now I can hold on target, wait until I've stabilised better, and then release. I rarely have a problem with any of my form collapsing now.
 
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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Interesting post.. I made the same change about 8 years ago. The holding does feel easier... the bio mechanics say it should do anyway.
There was a time when I started to hit my forearm with the string and I struggled with that for about a year. So, I reverted to my more open stance and bow arm was clear of the string again! Bingo!
Since then I have played around( experimented) with slight changes to the alignment of my shoulders rather than changing my feet. The alignment starts before I raise my arms, and the differences are obvious as soon as I raise them to about eye level. I can see from the position of the top limb in relation to the gold, when the bow is hanging down, how the alignment is going( open or more closed). As I draw, I am more aware of the bow shoulder as that feels the changes most. I think that feeling helps keep the shoulder working and that in turn helps prevent a collapse.
Collapses usually show at the bow arm as it flies across in front of the target.
 

8ballali

Member
I think i find more control with the closed stance, because I'm drawing almost in line with my arm and shoulder, allowing the bone structure to take most of the load, and hardly any sideways pressure on my bow hand.
I think the clipping the arm is just rotating the arm, and not rotating the wrist properly. The wrist rotation keeps the forearm away.
Having said this, it's just my opinion, and I'm not a top archer.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
8ballali, I sort of agree with your ideas. I do rotate the elbow out of the way, but I can get so close to my arm with the string path... because I am very skinny.
One of the things I wonder about when I am in closed stance, is the way the bow shoulder can get lazy as it feels so easy.( I shoot compound.)
If it relaxes when I get careless the arm can go anywhere.
 

8ballali

Member
I never think about rotating the elbow out of the way. When I did, I rotated my arm, instead of my wrist.
I think i may be doing things a little unorthodox, as it costs me draw weight, and hence, arrow speed, but i gain so much from my extra stability, that my consistency, accuracy, and scores, have improved significantly.
I no longer extend my bowarm fully. I decided to try just drawing comfortably. I shoot barebow, so i have to hold the full draw weight. So much easier, and more consistent draw length. That's extremely important for a barebow, as we have no clicker.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
I no longer extend my bowarm fully.
That's a tough ask. I did this for compound as at 32lb holding it's no big deal. I couldn't do this at 44lb now. I need that bone on bone to take the weight. What weight are you holding?
 
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8ballali

Member
At my draw length, I think I'm only holding about 28#.
I do have my arm straight. I just don't do that extra extension of the shoulder any more. My arm is straight, but relaxed. With an open stance, the sideways pull of the string is still quite controllable, but virtually negated by my closed stance.
Being so close to my bowarm, I can't overdraw much, as my chest/armpit, stops me.
My 50m pb has risen from 466 last October, to 540. Though I haven't shot that distance since the end of August. I've started shooting wa18's, as it's been windy on our range, and we have small bosses. It's a recipe for damaged or lost arrows at 50m.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I think the extra extension of the bow shoulder makes the whole bow arm unstable. It takes muscles to keep the shoulder unit away from its "at rest" position. I say that is a bit like standing on tip toes and getting the heels off the ground. It uses muscles to hold the position.
 

8ballali

Member
I can see both arguments for it, as without the extension, using older, heavier bows, I suffered shoulder pain. Now I draw lighter a bow, I find that by using less muscles, there are less muscles tiring, and I seem to get a more consistent draw length.
You said you shoot compound.
Two of my friends do. They spent months relaxing the bow arm slightly at full draw, then, as they released, pushing toward the gold for that final extension.
I don't do the final extension at all.
Amazing how many small differences there can be in technique, yet so much is still the same, even with compounds.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
Pushing with a bent arm, straightens the arm when the bow is shot. But the shoulder can remain resting against the rib cage. If a straight bow arm is extended, the shoulder must leave its resting place( bone on bone) and become supported by working muscles. They are not the muscles that steady the bow arm, though.
 

8ballali

Member
I told them it was an interesting principle, but i thought it was overcomplicating it. I think that with less is more. I try to simplify what I'm doing, despite the huge number of ways I've found to miss.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I told them it was an interesting principle, but i thought it was overcomplicating it. I think that with less is more. I try to simplify what I'm doing, despite the huge number of ways I've found to miss.
It does seem to me that missing is the easier of the two options. The way I use, in order to miss, is the method I have used since starting archery. I shoot the bow myself.
 

8ballali

Member
It does seem to me that missing is the easier of the two options. The way I use, in order to miss, is the method I have used since starting archery. I shoot the bow myself.
Lmao.
I recorded myself shooting a week last Saturday. I noticed a couple of things I was doing wrong, that seem so basic, yet I hadn't felt myself doing it wrong. Unfortunately, I've only been able to shoot once or twice per week for the last two months, so i struggle with my release for five or ten ends every time, before I can start working on anything else. Tried sorting it out on Saturday. I thought I was shooting poorly, but ended up only two points off my pb. So the minor changes seem to be worthwhile.
The main thing is, no dreaded collapse.
 

Hawkmoon

Member
If I look at an archer at full draw( hypothetical archer) they usually do one of two things. Creep; or get rid of the arrow before they are really ready.
If you imagine an archer at full draw deliberately trying to maintain a certain draw length, you will see either, a creep or usually a "sawing" back and forth motion of the arrow on the rest. The size of the sawing motion may be very small, but it will be there.
I think that is the result of a continual pull/relax a bit; pull/ relax a bit action, as keeping still is all but impossible. It looks like a bit of a struggle ,too.
My thinking is that it can create a situation where releasing could happen on the "relax a bit" or on the "pull". The archer thinks they are maintaining their draw length; and may not sense the sawing, or the difference between pull and relax a bit.
Continually trying the draw just a little further, means the action ( in the mind at least) is always one of pulling. Like drawing through a clicker but a smaller amount than a normal clicker user. I feel it is easier to continue and control one action, than trying to stop and hold, with as much control
Geoff, you have it in one!
When I draw I slow right down as I approach anchor but I never stop adding to the pull even when I reach my anchor point, in my head I am still pulling further back but very slowly, in reality I have stopped drawing and am stable at anchor. This also avoids the two/three part draw with a stop in the middle before release.
 

Hawkmoon

Member
From what I have been able to workout, taking my shooting and talking to other archers into account, most collapses are due to the archer relaxing in the wrong order, the actual release is a relaxing on the string fingers allowing the string to pass them with the minimum interference and followed a fraction of a second later by a complete relaxing of the form (bow arm should stay up), but if you get this the wrong way round your form will collapse into a forward release.

WARNING!!! DO NOT THINK ABOUT THIS ON THE LINE! I did and nearly punched myself in the face with my bow hand!

My main issue with Jake is that he is a KSL archer trying to adapt his style to bare bow instead of starting from scratch and so has to overcome lots of obstacles' that most other bare bow archers have already dealt with.
The only way to avoid you arrow moving forwards from anchor is to not stop moving backwards!.....simples:)

In practice this means that as you approach anchor you slow down more and more until as you reach anchor you have almost stopped completely but you are still pulling more all the time, so in your head you are still drawing back ever so slowly but in reality you will have just about stopped, as well as avoiding creep/sawing this also keeps the draw and release as one flowing action. My shot cycle is fairly quick (six arrows take me just over two minutes, so I should pause a bit in-between shots), and I am only holding for a second or two, just long enough to settle on the target.
 
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8ballali

Member
Glad that works well for you.
I've tried expending through the shot. I lose height control.
I hold on my aiming point until my point settles, then release.
I don't think I creep, but video evidence will hopefully show me one way or the other.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
My main issue with Jake is that he is a KSL archer trying to adapt his style to bare bow instead of starting from scratch and so has to overcome lots of obstacles' that most other bare bow archers have already dealt with.
I would say 90% of KSL is applicable to barebow. The same with Korean styles. I've stopped pulling to a clicker that is not there as found it did not give me good draw length repeatability. The only difference I find with barebow to recurve is the bit around the anchor at full draw. My best form so far is coming to aim while coming to full draw which reduces time needed to hold on aim. It's got my h/c below 30 with the odd 27 but I need to be around the low 20s to be happy.
Of all the top bb archers I've seen on youtube I would say 90% creep.
 

8ballali

Member
I recorded the last end I shot in practice today, to check for creep. I didn't see any, but my eyes aren't the best. So i don't think I suffer from creep. Certainly not on every arrow. I do lose back tension, and have a loss of string tension occasionally.
 
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