Beginners Courses and Duration.......

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE

mediumtab

Member
We all know a maximum of six sessions is allowed by ArcheryGB rules.
Like Others,Our particular club has been unable to run full beginners courses this year.These are usually an Intro/Kit out night,followed by shooting sessions.
We have cut this down to four weeks total ,during covid,on a one to one basis with the coach.Mainly to get a few more through........
I am just wondering how many weeks other clubs provide,under usual circumstances.As we are unlikely to be back to normality,possibly until next Autumn,do others think that four weeks in total is enough??
 

Geophys2

Member
It should be a twelve hour course, at my old club we always ran this as two six hour days. Much easier on the coaches only having to run two sessions and also didn't tie up the field so much for other members, we also found that we had more people completing the course and joining the club.

At my current clubs we have not run any beginners courses while social distancing is required as it would make it impossible for a coach to step in quickly if an unsafe situation arose, or to physically correct a bad posture. At my NFAS field club we have been running conversion courses for AGB archers wanting to take up field and join NFAS as the need for close contact is not there as these are all experienced archers.
 

jrfrost

New member
We do our course over a weekend, , lots of breaks where we give talks on bow types, club structure, kit talks, videos etc.

Works really well and allows us to pretty much allows our coaches to run course on demand if we get interest outside of our normal planned courses.
 

ATH

New member
My view is that the default 4 weeks/12 hours is nowhere near long enough, but I appreciate why the rule is there from an NGB/membership/insurance point of view. So I am a big fan of feeding fresh novices straight into an improvers course immediately after their beginners course ends and they join the club.
 

Electron

New member
We have been running 4 week courses for some time and find that it works well both for participants and instructors.
 

Eugen

New member
My personal opinion:
if beginners’ course is considered to be an introduction to sport, then 12 hours is absolutely nothing.
if beginners’ course is considered to be an introduction to hobby, then 12 hours is not enough and should be minimum about 100 hours.
why? The answer is simple:
after beginners course you get know only tiny things about archery and usually this is related to stance and steps of shooting, some basic elements of safety. That’s all.
after beginner’s course each ‘archer’ thinks they know enough to shoot independently and this is wrong absolutely. To step on the way of independent archery practice they need to know about anatomy and mechanics of bow, styles, understand technical aspects of arrows like weight, spine, etc. They need to get introduced to proper techniques etc.

beginners course, theoretically, I believe, suppose to make you a beginner in archery but not a comical imitation of fun-archery.
So. I believe the very basic beginner’s course should be about 100 hours and 20-30 hours of introduction of mechanical and technical aspects of equipment.

I understand that a significant number of clubs will be then not able to earn money to survive, but this is other question related to ratio quality/quantity And position of archery is sports ‘industry’.

right now as I see it - archery is just a hobby clubs providing fun events to earn money to survive.

the second question raises from here is coaching courses quality. I struggle to convince me that they are genuine ‘coaching’ and syllabuses definitely should be reconsidered and significantly improve.

I am sorry if my opinion upsets someone.
 

dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
My personal opinion:
if beginners’ course is considered to be an introduction to sport, then 12 hours is absolutely nothing.
if beginners’ course is considered to be an introduction to hobby, then 12 hours is not enough and should be minimum about 100 hours.
why? The answer is simple:
after beginners course you get know only tiny things about archery and usually this is related to stance and steps of shooting, some basic elements of safety. That’s all.
after beginner’s course each ‘archer’ thinks they know enough to shoot independently and this is wrong absolutely. To step on the way of independent archery practice they need to know about anatomy and mechanics of bow, styles, understand technical aspects of arrows like weight, spine, etc. They need to get introduced to proper techniques etc.

beginners course, theoretically, I believe, suppose to make you a beginner in archery but not a comical imitation of fun-archery.
So. I believe the very basic beginner’s course should be about 100 hours and 20-30 hours of introduction of mechanical and technical aspects of equipment.

I understand that a significant number of clubs will be then not able to earn money to survive, but this is other question related to ratio quality/quantity And position of archery is sports ‘industry’.

right now as I see it - archery is just a hobby clubs providing fun events to earn money to survive.

the second question raises from here is coaching courses quality. I struggle to convince me that they are genuine ‘coaching’ and syllabuses definitely should be reconsidered and significantly improve.

I am sorry if my opinion upsets someone.
I think that maybe your numbers are a bit high but in principle you're not wrong.

Most beginner's courses aren't much more than taster sessions combined with making sure that you are safe, which to be honest is enough to let you turn up at a club and shoot till you decide that you want to keep going or try a different sport; more or less when you buy your own kit I suppose.

Which is about when you want some sort of improvers course to kick in, but the provision of these is really spotty.
 

Electron

New member
I should emphasise that we consider the basic 4 session beginners course only sufficient to ensure safe shooting. We continue to coach all our beginners far beyond the basic course.
 

Geophys2

Member
The 12 hour beginners course is just a period of coaching that helps to ensure that you are safe to shoot and to help you decide that archery really is something that you want to continue. No one pretends that it is enough to make you into the finished object. This is all a level 1 coaching qualification really qualifies you to do. At my club once you have joined you are allocated a level 2 coach whose responsibility is to continue your training and coaching at a pace that you can cope with, we also have regular sessions for intermediate and advanced archers, (yes even MB archers need an independent eye look at them occasionally). One of my responsibilities is to do the technical bow set up and tuning as it's one of my interests, this will also be graduated in depth according to the archer's experience and ability. Oh and one of the senior coaches also coaches me.
 

dvd8n

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The 12 hour beginners course is just a period of coaching that helps to ensure that you are safe to shoot and to help you decide that archery really is something that you want to continue. No one pretends that it is enough to make you into the finished object. This is all a level 1 coaching qualification really qualifies you to do. At my club once you have joined you are allocated a level 2 coach whose responsibility is to continue your training and coaching at a pace that you can cope with, we also have regular sessions for intermediate and advanced archers, (yes even MB archers need an independent eye look at them occasionally). One of my responsibilities is to do the technical bow set up and tuning as it's one of my interests, this will also be graduated in depth according to the archer's experience and ability. Oh and one of the senior coaches also coaches me.
That's really cool and I applaud you and your club, but some clubs don't have a single level 2 coach amongst their members.
 

Eugen

New member
I am not agree that it provides ‘you are safe’. If you will see beginners after course you will see they all have bruised forearms, for example. Other aches and pains Related to ‘wrong-doing’ something.
also, when they buy equipment it is not safe - they do not have understanding. simple Example, try to shoot a strong bow with small grains arrow... if arrow is wooden then be sure the arrow will break down and pieces will fly in different directions. So, it is not safe.
also, about safety for others - i also have doubts. When they load an arrow and then moving around etc.

im not criticising existing ‘standard’... I’m just saying that ‘beginner’s course’ isn’t in fact a beginner’s course. And safety is absolutely not the result of this course.
I think, this is just a wrong naming for this ‘course’.

but, as I said, I understand issue and recognise that clubs need to earn, need survive, also ‘coaches’ should be paid (and we all know the issue with coaching)…
 

dvd8n

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I am not agree that it provides ‘you are safe’. If you will see beginners after course you will see they all have bruised forearms, for example. Other aches and pains Related to ‘wrong-doing’ something.
Well, really I meant safety to others.

also, when they buy equipment it is not safe - they do not have understanding. simple Example, try to shoot a strong bow with small grains arrow... if arrow is wooden then be sure the arrow will break down and pieces will fly in different directions. So, it is not safe.
At most courses they get told not to buy a bow until their technique settles, and then seek advice. But I agree, some don't listen.

also, about safety for others - i also have doubts. When they load an arrow and then moving around etc.
That really should have been beaten out of them at the beginners course :rolleyes:
 

Eugen

New member
Safety personal and others is the key.... but safety is not ended with syllabus or learning shooting steps.
personal safety is also the key - no club needs an injuried ‘beginner’ on field. Not only shooting technique should be safe, but also behaviour, equipment, etc.

no, it is not ‘beaten out of them’. Course is just 12 hours. Remember?

they told of course.... and some will seek an advice... just some of them... but don’t forget that archery for them is fun, childish game at one point, courage and emotional uplifting.... when emotion grows, brain cognition lowers.... even if they told during these 12 hours, they will not do this.....
and the more they ‘forget’ or do ‘not right’ the more this behaviour becoming ‘their normal’.
I hope you will agree that to learn something from scratch is much effective and easier than ‘re-learn’ and ‘re-educate’ behaviour.
 

dvd8n

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I see what you are saying, but I think that 12 hours is long enough to teach someone not to hurt themselves and others. And if they later fall back into careless ways then a quiet word from a club member will remind them.

And if 12 hours isn't enough, then they should be failed. The guys that did my beginner's course used to fail people occasionally on safety grounds.
 

Geophys2

Member
I am not agree that it provides ‘you are safe’. If you will see beginners after course you will see they all have bruised forearms, for example. Other aches and pains Related to ‘wrong-doing’ something.
also, when they buy equipment it is not safe - they do not have understanding. simple Example, try to shoot a strong bow with small grains arrow... if arrow is wooden then be sure the arrow will break down and pieces will fly in different directions. So, it is not safe.
also, about safety for others - i also have doubts. When they load an arrow and then moving around etc.

im not criticising existing ‘standard’... I’m just saying that ‘beginner’s course’ isn’t in fact a beginner’s course. And safety is absolutely not the result of this course.
I think, this is just a wrong naming for this ‘course’.

but, as I said, I understand issue and recognise that clubs need to earn, need survive, also ‘coaches’ should be paid (and we all know the issue with coaching)…
I'm not sure where you've had your experience, but I don't recognise your criticisms from the more than 20 beginners' courses and 250 or so archers involved I have helped run. The 12 hours is perfectly adequate to fulfil the basic requirements of instilling safety and basic form. It is only an introduction to the sport and makes no pretence in turning out a finished archer. As to buying the wrong kit all of our beginners are told specifically not to buy anything, we lend them any kit for as long as they need it, and when they eventually do buy it is part of my job to talk it through with them and help with selection, I usually like to go with them to the shop and advise on the spot. I'm not sure what you are talking about with the wooden arrows, but basic arrow spine selection for longbow isn't rocket science, which as a scientist I can tell you is one of the simpler sciences.

Don't tar all beginners courses with the same brush, based on your own.
 

LAC Mark

Active member
If we made beginners causes 100 hours long you'd never get people into the sport, I think you'd also have trouble finding volunteers to do the level 1 coaching causes knowing that so much of their own shooting time would be taken up with training.
 

Eugen

New member
I see what you are saying, but I think that 12 hours is long enough to teach someone not to hurt themselves and others. And if they later fall back into careless ways then a quiet word from a club member will remind them.

And if 12 hours isn't enough, then they should be failed. The guys that did my beginner's course used to fail people occasionally on safety grounds.
honestly I havent seen yet any beginners failed the course.....
but I cannot exclude the option that somewhere it can happen
 

Eugen

New member
I'm not sure where you've had your experience, but I don't recognise your criticisms from the more than 20 beginners' courses and 250 or so archers involved I have helped run. The 12 hours is perfectly adequate to fulfil the basic requirements of instilling safety and basic form. It is only an introduction to the sport and makes no pretence in turning out a finished archer. As to buying the wrong kit all of our beginners are told specifically not to buy anything, we lend them any kit for as long as they need it, and when they eventually do buy it is part of my job to talk it through with them and help with selection, I usually like to go with them to the shop and advise on the spot. I'm not sure what you are talking about with the wooden arrows, but basic arrow spine selection for longbow isn't rocket science, which as a scientist I can tell you is one of the simpler sciences.

Don't tar all beginners courses with the same brush, based on your own.
im not talking about a ‘rocket science’, and you, as I am, as a scientist suppose to understand what I’m talking about.
the same I can address to you - you based your comment on your own experience. So, I don’t think that this is something wrong. You tell your experience and I told mine. What wrong with this? Or only your opinion and experience counts? Strange approach...
 

dvd8n

Supporter
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honestly I havent seen yet any beginners failed the course.....
but I cannot exclude the option that somewhere it can happen
Oh yes, it does :)

I was joking with my coach on my beginners course about failing and he told me that people rarely failed, but when they did then it was always about safety.
 

Geophys2

Member
Yes I've failed a few over the years, almost always over safety and what I can only describe as the wrong 'motivation' and attitude.
 
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