Broken Bow, seller won't refund... Help!

Gold Flinger

New member
Fonz Awardee
Hi, I could do with some advice about a bow that I bought in March. After a couple of weeks, the upper limb cracked in several places - the cracks are in the upper laminate and have caused it to flake off in places.

I contacted the retailer, Red Frog Archery of Irvine, immediately. As it was within 30 days, I asked for a full refund on the basis that I was rejecting the goods as faulty.

The seller is refusing to give a refund, saying that he wants to send the bow back to the manufacturer, and only if they deem it to be a manufacturing issue, will he give me a refund.

I'm 100% sure that the Consumer Rights Act entitles me to a full refund for rejected faulty goods, but the seller is insisting that it's a guarantee claim.

What could the manufacturers possibly determine from seeing the bow? The cracks are clearly stress cracks, evenly spaced on the outer edges of the limb.

Does Red Frog Archery have the right to refuse a refund? They have been really awkward and obstructive so I'm not confident sending my bow to them without an assurance that I'll get my money back, and I certainly don't want to wait while they send it off to Italy!

Any advice would be appreciated.
 

strathq

New member
I've bought a few things from them in the past - via eBay... never had any issues.. but usually only small items..
anyways..
did you pay using Paypal... if so raise an issue... they always take the buyers side!
and will refund you... i only ever pay using Paypal... its saved me on a few occassions.
 

fbirder

Member
Your contract is with Red Frog, not the manufacturer. The law says that, up to six months after purchase, it is up to them to prove that it was not an inherent fault.

Did you pay by credit card? If so, get in contact with the card company. They will issue a refund and pursue the retailer. Visa debit should do something similar, although that's voluntary, not a legal requirement as with credit cards.
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
It's amazing how many retailers think they can trade outside the law. Within 30 days you have an 'early right to reject goods' and get a full refund including return shipping cost.

Which http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product
Under the Consumer Rights Act you have an early right to reject goods that are unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described and get a full refund.
But this right is limited to 30 days from the date of purchase of your product.
After the initial 30 days, you can't demand a full refund in the first instance but you still have the right to a repair or replacement
Which provide a letter template...
Get a refund on a faulty item - Which? Consumer Rights

If the item was over ?100, you only have to pay 1p or more using the credit card, you can use your credit card company to do the work as they have to cover the entire cost, if paid on credit card, but it doesn't apply if you went through Paypal! You would need to go down the 'chargeback' route or use Paypal dispute as 'Strathq' suggested..
Good luck, but you shouldn't need luck these days.
 

Mark31121

Member
Ironman
within 30 days you are quite right, the consumer rights act states a full refund on the first instance and then a repair/replacement up to six months. Only then does the guarantee come into it (and far more complicated). If you paid by anything other than cash then you have additional protection - but they would expect the retailer to deal with it first.
 

sadoldwargamer

New member
I had exactly the same problem with another shop. The limbs began to flake and they insisted that they would send them back to the manufacturer to examine and I would have to pay shipping costs. I quoted the Consumer Rights Act and the small claims court and got a swift replacement. Never dealt with the shop since.

The issue I had was proving that the flaking was due to faulty limbs and not "damage" caused by me. I argued that even if it was in unintentional damage, a set of ?500 limbs should not chip at the slightest knock. For the record, they were not knocked in anyway shape or form.
 

Gold Flinger

New member
Fonz Awardee
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I thought I'd paid by credit card but I actually paid using Paypal. So I'll raise a dispute with them.

Here's a photo of the limb - it's clear that the limb hasn't been knocked and that they are stress cracks...

I think the lesson here is to avoid Red Frog Archery!

 

blackarrow37

New member
looking at your picture they are pants..You can say they were not fit for purpose and claim a refund or replacement
paypal will defo refund if they see that picture of them
i had a set of limbs that were just coming up to the 2 year warranty that delaminated
the shop replaced them after me sending them back for inspection with no questions asked
so a great service from them.. well done custom build archery
 

Gold Flinger

New member
Fonz Awardee
looking at your picture they are pants..You can say they were not fit for purpose and claim a refund or replacement
You would have thought so wouldn't you... But Red Frog Archery are still refusing to accept that I have a legal right to reject goods within 30 days if they are faulty!

So I'm going to be suing him. A trip to court, having to pay costs and an investigation by Trading Standards might force him to familiarise himself with the Consumer Rights Act.
 

fbirder

Member
I am astonished that they're willing to take it this far. Do they know that this forum (and the Facebook page with a similar discussion) exist? Do they know just how damaging bad publicity can be? Or are they in dire financial straits and don't care?
 

mkhari

New member
Thanks for the heads up, I was about to place an order with them.

Had a similar issue with a gadget insurance company, issued a money claim online, provided the evidence by post and got it sorted without leaving the comfort of my home. I don't think many people turn up to small claims court these days.
 

Gold Flinger

New member
Fonz Awardee
I am astonished that they're willing to take it this far. Do they know that this forum (and the Facebook page with a similar discussion) exist? Do they know just how damaging bad publicity can be? Or are they in dire financial straits and don't care?
I think he's just so stubborn, he refuses to admit that his understanding of the law was lacking and is hoping I'll get bored and forget about it!

When my bow broke, he was on holiday, so to cover my own back, I issued a notification of rejection of faulty goods. I didn't want to wait for him to get back (a month later) and risk him refusing to take it back. It obviously got his back up that I was demanding a refund and he's effectively lost a sale, but he was gallivanting round Thailand for a month and I needed to order a replacement.

After he'd heard back from Ragim that they agreed it was a manufacturing fault, he reluctantly agreed to refund the price of the bow. But by this stage, I'd got Trading Standards involved and been advised that he was obliged to refund shipping and consequential losses.

So, it's out of my hands now, a letter-before-action has been sent so it's just a matter of waiting and then issuing proceedings against him. And yes, I've got no qualms about discussing my experience on forums and social media. He's been very foolish!
 

KidCurry

Well-known member
AIUK Saviour
It sounds like you've done exactly the right thing. You can't wait for other people to get their lives in order as the law does not take things like that in to consideration. I remember my old law lecturer was once questioned about a legal decision being moral. His response to her was "my dear, you are not sudying morality, you are studying English law" :)
 

Gold Flinger

New member
Fonz Awardee
At the end of the day, he's caused this over 30 quid and a lost sale. 30 quid gets you precious little these days, and it would be easy just to say "ah fuggedaboudit", but even if it was a pound, the fact that he's breaking the law to try and deprive me of it means he's got a fight on his hands!
 

little-else

Supporter
Supporter
AIUK Saviour
A very sad tale. Consumer contract law changed about a year ago to make it easier to understand the rights for distance sales and to extend slightly the time the consumer has to return goods that are faulty. In truth, this isnt really much a change of the law but more of a clarification of the minimum standards that have applied by way of legislation and case law for some time. In short, the retailer should have known this and not wasted time and effort arguing about what the manufacturer will or wont do, that is not your problem but his, he sold you the item and he has the responsibility to you.
I would hope that he has the sense to pay you the return shipping costs etc without further delay and argument. As you point out modern social media can be utilised to give opinion on this to a very wide audience and it is a foolish retailer that ignores this as they dont have to even have their own web presence for someone to place comments on reputation scoring sites for others to see. Also, as you say, they have lost their ony chance of keeping you as a customer. Give decent customer service and people will forgive a poorly manufactured limb as being beyond the retailers control and be persuaded to buy something else. Screw them around and they go elsewhere and so do their friends. Comments online stay there for an awfully long time
 

Gold Flinger

New member
Fonz Awardee
That sure does look a lot more like "chipped paint" than "broken bow".
It's the upper laminate - not sure if it's structural or no, I think it probably is as the draw became 'lighter' when it happened. However you want to label it, it's a failure!

And the customer service I've since experienced from Graham Armstrong at Red Frog Archery in Irvine has been diabolical!
 

EVC

New member
That sure does look a lot more like "chipped paint" than "broken bow".

But certainly "chipped paint" won't get the attention that "broken bow" does.
In a sense it is broken as it is not like when it was brand new and it took a short time to get like this. Even if it is just aesthetics right now, it shows lack of quality that could be evidence of something more structurally serious.

I have seen Hoyt, WinWin, even low end KAP limbs many years old that do not show such a kind of damage.
 
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