Clubs with members of more than one association.

Valkamai

New member
My club is in the process of changing its fundamental identity in that it is no longer going to be mandatory that agb membership is needed to be a member of the club. Members will be able to be club members only with no affiliation to a society or can be members of one of the other societies instead. Obviously at the moment members can belong to as many of the societies as they wish but it is mandatory for agb membership.
My concern is that this is going to lead to division and cliques forming within the members of the club with each faction demanding preference over the other for club resources and funds.
How do other clubs who operate in this way balance the resources and still give a united club feel to its members?

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KidCurry

Active member
If your membership does not need AGB affiliation will non AGB members have to have their own insurance or will you have uninsured archers? I would imagine if you allow uninsured archers to shoot you will invalidate all AGB insurances for the club and hence leaving the club committee legally vulnerable.
 


AndyW

Active member
We have members who are with one, two,three and four societies and multiple clubs. The club is the club, if we are there we are there if we aren't we are accepted as doing other stuff and will see the others at some point. It doesn't detract from the club itself. We are insured as a club and also members of the society to which we are affiliated are insured by them also.
To answer the faction question I'm assuming you will be continuing as a target type club so if people come along and don't like it they will go elsewhere. A simple statement of intent at the beginning of the change should be enough rather than wait for issues. Something of the "we will continue to be a ******** focused club" should be fine and then anyone wanting anything different can be listened to with that caveat.
If you've got enough room there's no real harm in sticking a few 3Ds or fun targets in an unused section for folks to have a play. Especially, kids.
 


Valkamai

New member
Kid curry, going forward the club is having its own insurance rather than agb insurances so any member or guests will be covered by insurance whilst at the club and grounds.

AndyW it is a agb field club with a bit of 3d as well rather than target and we are hoping to attract members of wfaa or nfas to come and shoot here if that want as well. Many members are already dual society members anyway but leaving the agb insurance and taking out our own has given us more options.

Thanks both for your opinions. [emoji1303]

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dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
It sounds like how the NFF clubs work. The clubs associate solely for insurance purposes. The insurance insures members of the club or visitors to the club, who can be a member of any association or none.

I've never noticed any cliquey-ness between members of different associations. In fact I doubt that many members know what other associations members belong to.

I suspect that clubs are either prone to cliques forming or not; it's not really down to the associations.
 


Valkamai

New member
Dvd8n thanks, that's just what I wanted to hear.

It would be terrible if the fantastic spirit and atmosphere of my club was lost.

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Mark31121

Member
Ironman
short of them potentially shooting to slightly different rules I can't see an issue (I don't know the different rules for field as I seldom shoot it)

I'm in a target club that doesn't have any affiliations (private insurance) and just a couple of us have joined AGB, it's still quite new to us though so I'm not sure how well it will pan out in a few years.
 


AndyW

Active member
Kid curry, going forward the club is having its own insurance rather than agb insurances so any member or guests will be covered by insurance whilst at the club and grounds.

AndyW it is a agb field club with a bit of 3d as well rather than target and we are hoping to attract members of wfaa or nfas to come and shoot here if that want as well. Many members are already dual society members anyway but leaving the agb insurance and taking out our own has given us more options.

Thanks both for your opinions. [emoji1303]


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If you were close to me I would certainly come along, I think all will turn out fine. Not to detract from clubs that choose to stay with a certain society but I believe it's the way to go.
Very best of luck with it.
 


Del the Cat

Active member
I think this is an admirable move forward. If more clubs were like this the various societies would maybe become more cooperative , less petty and bureaucratic.
Del
 


ben tarrow

Active member
How does your club deal with the AGB mandatory requirement that ALL your club members must be members of AGB? The club secretary has to confirm that as part of the renewal process each year.
Also how do you decide who is insured? Doesn't club insurance insure the club, but the club isn't the same thing as it's members. So, if one member injures another and gets personally sued by the injured person, (its not the club that is being sued here) does the club insurance cover them, or does cover only apply if the injured person sues the club directly? AGB insurance states explicitly that cover includes member on member and non members for their first 6 sessions.
 


dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
How does your club deal with the AGB mandatory requirement that ALL your club members must be members of AGB? The club secretary has to confirm that as part of the renewal process each year.
Also how do you decide who is insured? Doesn't club insurance insure the club, but the club isn't the same thing as it's members. So, if one member injures another and gets personally sued by the injured person, (its not the club that is being sued here) does the club insurance cover them, or does cover only apply if the injured person sues the club directly? AGB insurance states explicitly that cover includes member on member and non members for their first 6 sessions.
If the club is not affiliated to the AGB then AGB has no say in the matter of who is a member.

As for the insurance, I have not seen the documents, but it is my understanding that the insurance covers anyone shooting at the club, either as a member or as a signed in guest.
 


Buying insurance cant be that difficult, the BLBS and ILAA have their own policies so as long as your club has a suitable policy then there is no real need to be AGB affiliated. It will get complicated if you shoot elsewhere in a competition that is run under the auspices of AGB because evryone else will run around like headless chickens because of this supposed problem.
many years ago when I had to register my employers staff social club as a registered members club the licencing officers of the police thought that it was compulsory to belong to the Clubs and Institutes Union (CIU) and we werent members. This gave them problems until we pointed out that the CIU barred women from being members so we couldnt accept their rules and then they dropped their objections in front of the licensing magistrate. Things are vastly different now but many people dont want to know as long as they get to do what they want and will happily spout forth on outdated regulations nd invented rules just to keep themselves in the conversation.
Dont want to shoot elsewhere? then take the cheaper option regarding affiliations and bureaucracy.

If your membership does not need AGB affiliation will non AGB members have to have their own insurance or will you have uninsured archers? I would imagine if you allow uninsured archers to shoot you will invalidate all AGB insurances for the club and hence leaving the club committee legally vulnerable.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
A non AGB club has to be exactly that. Since AGB require that ALL members of an AGB club are members of AGB then if SOME members of an "own insurance" club want to be AGB members (to go to shoot elsewhere, or take part in AGB organised events), they'd have to go down the AGB Direct route, as you can't have an AGB club where SOME members are AGB and some arent.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
Also, you've got to be careful about insurance.
When I joined the club that I belong to now, I was told that they had their own insurance. After a burglary, we discovered that not only did the so called insurance not cover the contents of the range that had been stolen, there wasnt actually any 3rd party liability or any member to member cover. We held an emergency EGM, went AGB a week later and got some proper contents cover too.
Amazing how the prospect of losing your life savings, house and car motivates people.
As a member of a club without adequate insurance, you could be held liable if the club were successfully sued.
 


JohnR

The American
American Shoot
As a member of a club without adequate insurance, you could be held liable if the club were successfully sued.
As a member of a club without adequate insurance, and if the club were successfully sued, your liability is limited to payment of your subscriptions.
As a committee member of a club without adequate insurance, you could be held liable if the club were successfully sued.
As a member of a club without adequate insurance, you would be held personally liable if you were successfully sued. Which could be the case if it was you who caused the damage to another member.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
As a member of a club without adequate insurance, and if the club were successfully sued, your liability is limited to payment of your subscriptions.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.
Your liability wouldnt be limited in any way, unless the club was a limited company.
Go check with a legal person if you dont believe me.
I did when I investigated making our club a company limited by guarantee. Its scary really.

A club is just a collection of people. It has no standing as a legal entity in its own right. Therefore, if you sue the club, you are suing the members
 


JohnR

The American
American Shoot
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one.
Your liability wouldnt be limited in any way, unless the club was a limited company.
Go check with a legal person if you dont believe me.
I did when I investigated making our club a company limited by guarantee. Its scary really.

A club is just a collection of people. It has no standing as a legal entity in its own right. Therefore, if you sue the club, you are suing the members
I refer you to Ashton & Reid on Clubs and Associations, the leading guide on this subject. (Quoting from second edition 2011.) From para 1.10 "It is generally well known, and one of its major attractions, that in an unincorporated members' club the liability of the individual member is limited to his entrance fee (if any) and his subscriptions." References are given.
From para 1.11 "On the other hand, the responsibility for transactions and activities carried on by the club rests normally with the managing committee. It is they to whom creditors or injured persons will look for payment of the club's debts or compensation for injuries suffered on club premises. This may have severe financial consequences for the members of the club who are also members of the committee and may be seen as a serious disadvantage of an unincorporated members club."

So, as I said above:
"As a member of a club without adequate insurance, and if the club were successfully sued, your liability is limited to payment of your subscriptions.
As a committee member of a club without adequate insurance, you could be held liable if the club were successfully sued."

Any advice you received to become a limited company relates to protection of committee members, not to members in general to whom it makes no difference. Whether a limited company is the most appropriate means of protecting committee members is another question.
 


ben tarrow

Active member
I refer you to Ashton & Reid on Clubs and Associations, the leading guide on this subject. (Quoting from second edition 2011.) From para 1.10 "It is generally well known, and one of its major attractions, that in an unincorporated members' club the liability of the individual member is limited to his entrance fee (if any) and his subscriptions." References are given.
From para 1.11 "On the other hand, the responsibility for transactions and activities carried on by the club rests normally with the managing committee. It is they to whom creditors or injured persons will look for payment of the club's debts or compensation for injuries suffered on club premises. This may have severe financial consequences for the members of the club who are also members of the committee and may be seen as a serious disadvantage of an unincorporated members club."

So, as I said above:
"As a member of a club without adequate insurance, and if the club were successfully sued, your liability is limited to payment of your subscriptions.
As a committee member of a club without adequate insurance, you could be held liable if the club were successfully sued."

Any advice you received to become a limited company relates to protection of committee members, not to members in general to whom it makes no difference. Whether a limited company is the most appropriate means of protecting committee members is another question.
Fair enough. Your argument is compelling. I was only able to repeat what I was told, since this is not my area of expertise. Thank you
 


Quentin Mabbutt

New member
We are treading along the same path - Are we wise to do so?

Valkamai
Many thanks for your comment and question. It is exactly the same debate we are undertaking but ours is very much along the lines 'what does AGB do for us - We can save members money'. The debate is becoming a little divisive with strong supporters of maintaining the status quo and others wanting a dual membership profile. We have the necessary Club insurance to cover off all members in addition to the AGB cover (although its exact terms are not that clear).

I feel it will be divide the Club slightly but as dvd8n mentions they could happen anyway, people being people.

My question is how would you protect the direction of the Club in terms of adherence to the Rules of Shooting and preventing unusual interpretations of these? Membership of associations does tend to keep everyone roughly in line.

Thank you
 


dvd8n

Supporter
Supporter
You are raising two different issues here.

A number of discussions on this board seem to be distillable down to the feeling that there it's a section of AGB membership that feels that it is not getting value for money for it's membership fee. There is the argument that archery is a low cost sport compared to others, eg golf, and that is true. However, it is also true that I personally know people who have switched clubs (and by implication association) in order to reduce costs, and people who have given up shooting completely due to the level of fees.

And of course I know of clubs that have switched associations.

Personally, I'm able to pay my fees to both my AGB club and my NFF club but if money were to get tight I'd drop AGB in a heartbeat. And that's a feeling that ought to bother AGB.
 


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