Compound Bows

PLEASE HELP TO FUND ARCHERY INTERCHANGE

Steve1968

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This follows on from something that was mentioned in the ACC etc discontinued thread. As I didn't want to hijack that thread.
It was mentioned that one of the issues of looking for arrows that have missed the target, are from light weight arrows shot from high poundage compound bows, these bows shoot arrows at a higher speed and flatter trajectory, therefore possibly making it harder to find missed arrows due to them burying into the ground more than an arrows from a recurve bow.

With regards to the above then, would it be reasonable to further limit the poundage allowed for compound bows. I'm sure I read somewhere (possibly in a thread on here), that compounds for target shooting are supposed to be limited to a max of 60lbs. Surely there is no need for compounds bows to have such high poundage, when you consider that recurve bows of 36lbs can hit a target at 90m. The average elite archers shoot recurves of around 44-50lbs (according to the stats during the Hyundai world cup). With a lower poundage the arrow speed should be reduced and with less power/force behind the arrow, if it missed the target it should not bury itself so deeply in the ground.

Sorry if I have opened a can of worms, wasn't my intention. Just genuinely interested in peoples opinions on this. I don't know that much about compound bows, so for all I know there may be reasons for the high poundage's.
 

geoffretired

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I agree with a lower limit. Once it is set( for good reasons, I feel) there will be some reaction no doubt but I would imagine the fuss, if any, would die down soon enough.
If there are advantages to high poundages; and I suspect there are some mainly to do with accuracy, then a lowering of draw weights will allow a wider spread of archers to entre at the top limits.
 

AndyW

Well-known member
I don't know what other societies rules are but NFAS have a max arrow speed of 300fps with most shooting 40 to 60lb.
The problem with limiting the poundage would be that only tall people would ever win. If poundage was lowered eg. to 40 as a hard rule the 6ft+ contingent with a draw length of 30"+ would be achieving much higher speeds than such as me with a 27" draw. Some archers I know have a 32" draw which gives them an extra 5" of acceleration out of the bow which is a massive advantage. At 60lb I get maybe 270fps with lightweight arrows whereas tall guys can shoot heavy arrows at 300fps so there's a lot less drop off and more room for distance judging errors. It's already an unfair playing field.
 

KidCurry

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As I mentioned in the other thread, unless limiting draw weight is a world wide change, UK archers would be written out of WA comps. And given finding carbon arrows only seems to be a UK issue why would the rest of the world change?
I don't know what other societies rules are but NFAS have a max arrow speed of 300fps with most shooting 40 to 60lb.
Given most compound speeds are rated at 70lb and 30" draw I'm sure most compound bows are already sub, or just around 300fps so I don't have an issue with this if it's a WA limit, but it's still fast and I doubt it would solve anything. My experience is mostly looking for arrows in the summer when the ground is hard and all arrows lie down.
 
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Whitehart

Well-known member
Why not put suckers on the arrows or insist on Zwicky points. I think we are all going social media stir crazy and need to get out and shoot.

Missing the target (Target archery) should be the exception rather than the rule, I mean the boss is big enough - perhaps if people sorted that out then all these issues would be less of a problem
 

AndyW

Well-known member
Given most compound speeds are rated at 70lb and 30" draw I'm sure most compound bows are already sub, or just around 300fps so I don't have an issue with this if it's a WA limit, but it's still fast and I doubt it would solve anything. My experience is mostly looking for arrows in the summer when the ground is hard and all arrows lie down.
You've lost me, what are you driving at? I was just saying at lower poundage long draw will statistically always win so it's a bad idea. Speed limit is much fairer.
 

Aleatorian

Member
You know how to limit poundage.... do it personally, if you feel 60# is too high, then don't shoot it.
Yes 36# recurve can hit 90m, but can it be done as accurately as as some one shooting higher draw weight (caveated with: that can manage it properly). Recurves are Oranges and Compounds are Apples, it is impossible to compare them in the manner that you are looking at.

The inherent nature of compound in the draw weight letting off in comparison to the recurve where full weight is held, most shoot the higher weights to have more to hold at the back end. Trust me, it's easier to hold steadier, especially in the wind, if you have more to hold on the back end. Your average compound archer is likely holding only between 14 - 19#, compared to your average recurve archers of upwards of 30#
Lower the poundage limit, if you can manage to get that to pass worldwide (I wish you the best of luck), and bow would have to be made with much lower let offs to get the holding weight back, which in turn gets the speed back and you are back at square 1, so...… pointless exercise.


I agree wholeheartedly with Whitehart, fix the archers because there is very little wrong with the equipment!
I've had this discussion with people before, missing is an inevitable part of the sport, it's going to happen early in our career and at some points during. Yet we spend all of our time when teaching people to shoot how to hit the target better, when they miss its just shrugged off, arrow retrieved and forgotten about.
How about flipping the script, teach people to understand the equipment, it's power, and how to diagnose a miss and where that arrow could have gone. Because, how many times have you shot with/near someone and they've had a miss and then been asked the question, "Where's it gone?" to get a blank expression and a, "I dunno!"

I know in my personal experience when I have a release misfire or I'm blown off target and I don't make it onto the boss that at 50m, I'm going to be looking for that arrow between 60 - 85m passed the boss, I can narrow down the area to go looking as I understand my equipment.
 

geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
AndyW, I take your point on that issue. Arrow speed is ,I think, a better way to reduce the range the arrows can reach in case of an accident.
When I shot at 50lbs aiming using my arrow point on a clout flag would get the arrow round the flag. So 180yds was no problem.
It is worrying to me how far they could go compared to my recurve.
 

KidCurry

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You've lost me, what are you driving at? I was just saying at lower poundage long draw will statistically always win so it's a bad idea. Speed limit is much fairer.
I was agreeing that limiting speed is better than limiting draw weight, but as most compounds drawing 60lb are probably shooting around the 300fps already, if chrono'd, I don't think a speed limit of 300fps will make much difference to the situation. Even dropping draw weight to 45lb would only take about 8-9% off the arrow speed. I don't really think there is a solution.
 
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jerryRTD

Well-known member
This follows on from something that was mentioned in the ACC etc discontinued thread. As I didn't want to hijack that thread.
It was mentioned that one of the issues of looking for arrows that have missed the target, are from light weight arrows shot from high poundage compound bows, these bows shoot arrows at a higher speed and flatter trajectory, therefore possibly making it harder to find missed arrows due to them burying into the ground more than an arrows from a recurve bow.

With regards to the above then, would it be reasonable to further limit the poundage allowed for compound bows. I'm sure I read somewhere (possibly in a thread on here), that compounds for target shooting are supposed to be limited to a max of 60lbs. Surely there is no need for compounds bows to have such high poundage, when you consider that recurve bows of 36lbs can hit a target at 90m. The average elite archers shoot recurves of around 44-50lbs (according to the stats during the Hyundai world cup). With a lower poundage the arrow speed should be reduced and with less power/force behind the arrow, if it missed the target it should not bury itself so deeply in the ground.

Sorry if I have opened a can of worms, wasn't my intention. Just genuinely interested in peoples opinions on this. I don't know that much about compound bows, so for all I know there may be reasons for the high poundage's.
There is one problem that you seem to have forgotten and that is the cost of getting new limbs I would not trust a bow that is running 60 lbs draw weight limbs at 50 lbs. Not enough thread engaged on the riser limb bolt interface.
Just about all the compound archers have a set of indoor arrows so why not use those? After all all the head to heads are shot over 50 meters now so why have long range shooting at all?
 

Steve1968

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Cheers guys, some good answers and information here. Like I said, I don't know much about compound bows, was just responding to something that was said in another thread.
 

Shirt

Well-known member
A permanent, or easily set up safety net, would help. Safety net that will stop the arrows, of course.
You mean a fence, not a net. I do not have a particularly fast compound (280fps?) but it'll put an arrow through 1/2" pine boards to the logo on the shaft.

A 300fps rule would make things worse. Because everyone would shoot to that, not a poundage limit. What speed limits do is encourage you to shoot a heavier bow, so that you can shoot a heavier arrow, which will drift less. If there wasn't a 60# limit I'd be looking to shoot somewhere around 65-67# so that I could get nearer 300fps from an X10 325 or similar arrow. That setup will just chew through targets quicker - not instant, but it would be a noticeable change.

And to the point that NFAS have a speed limit but everyone shoots 40-60#... it would be instructive to do a poll of the top end of the gents unlimited. If you look at those who don't shoot AGB, or who have a separate bow for NFAS, a large number will be over 60#.
 

geoffretired

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Hi Shirt, No, what I should have said was something that would be a barrier and would stop the arrows. If several layers of net don't work, then something else that does.
Perhaps then; the criterion should be; the arrows will not pass through barrier X. A bit like barebow bows have to pass through a ring of a certain diameter.
 

AndyW

Well-known member
I was agreeing that limiting speed is better than limiting draw weight, but as most compounds drawing 60lb are probably shooting around the 300fps already, if chrono'd, I don't think a speed limit of 300fps will make much difference to the situation. Even dropping draw weight to 45lb would only take about 8-9% off the arrow speed. I don't really think there is a solution.
Wish I could get to 300 but i shoot a C4. wrt losing arrows it's not a big deal with NFAS if it's gone after a good look it's gone. If we lose one/several the group rakes for the arrows and usually find them but i don't suppose sports fields are very keen on that.
 

AndyW

Well-known member
And to the point that NFAS have a speed limit but everyone shoots 40-60#... it would be instructive to do a poll of the top end of the gents unlimited. If you look at those who don't shoot AGB, or who have a separate bow for NFAS, a large number will be over 60#.
I said most. We've also got crossbows. The major factor with folk losing arrows is that they're a bit kak. The unlimited boys ain't losing many i can assure you.
 

fanio

Active member
I have a short-ish draw length (27.75) so that limits my speed when shooting with ProTours (367gr) - even at 60 lbs - to about 265/270 fps.

I also have a "short face" so distance between peep and arrow is relatively short. The combination means I really struggle with fletch/scope clearance at 90m.

But on a non-personal level - why should the rules for everyone be made for those who are not competent enough to keep their arrows in the boss? Even a real "flyer" from a half decent compounded should be landing in the blue at worst really.
 

little-else

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when people say that at 90m you shpuld be keeping them in the blue does that mean that anyone less than a first class archer should be banned from using a compound bow? If so then ban anyone who isnt MB recurve from doing 90m as well if the possibility of a miss is the defining criterion.
Now the arguments about arrow speed as the sole measure of "power" or energy are oversimplified and comparison with the abilities of the upper echelons of recurve archers isnt a correct one. The simple answer is the layout of the field and safety area behind the boss. Your field should fit the template, if it doesnt then no-one should play regardless of bow style or ability.
Someone mentioned cars- if everyone drove at 12mph there would be no road deaths at all but does that mean that all cars that are capable of doing 120 mph should be banned because the speed limit is 70mph on motorways? Most family cars are capable of doing that speed so do you insist that everyone buys a Trabant just to be on the safe side.

I have problems with people who think that everything they dont do themselves is a problem. In this country everything that isnt prescribed is legal and that is how it should be.
I have never had a motoring accident, does that make me a good driver or just a fortunate one? maybe vehicle and road design are contributing factors as well. Would anyone suggest that I am the only person allowed to use mototrways ar maybe drive a sports car at speed or do we accept that the limits appled by the Road Traffic acts apply to everyone equally regrdless of who they are and what car they drive and it is the responsibility of the individual to drive with due care and attention toward other road users

OP, if you know of a compound archer who habitually shoots in a careless manner then that should be acted upon rather than worrying about the performance of his bow.
When I was in the services there was a differentiation between an accidental discharge of a weapon and a negligent discharge and the latter could lead to being put on a charge.
 

KidCurry

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The simple answer is the layout of the field and safety area behind the boss. Your field should fit the template, if it doesnt then no-one should play regardless of bow style or ability.
I think this thread was not so much about safety, but fast arrows with flat trajectories burying themselves more often than slower higher trajectory arrows making them harder to find on mixed use fields.
And in this regard I have shot with archers who must shoot the maximum distance and who will put most of their arrows in the grass. I have shot at comps where archers lost so many arrows behind the boss they run out of arrows and had to stop shooting. Was not the 252 system designed to help with this to some extent? Just last week I spent the best part of an hour, from a three hour shooting session, looking for peoples arrows :( Having said that it's not normally compound arrows I spend time looking for :)

I think that for Compound and recurve there is a reasonable argument to shoot 90m for GMB but for Barebow and Longbow it seems pointless. To shoot GMB I only need a 40 h/c and MB a 48 h/c. I can shoot a 48 h/c and still be pulling lots of arrows out the ground. What's the point?
 
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