Compound release aid rule change

English Bowman

Well-known member
So if the archer drops the angle of the bow when coming to draw then they were aiming above the target during their draw, they were aiming above the target, if it stays at the same angle, or raises, no problem. (It's something that a judge at a field shoot looks out for as we get archers with light bows shooting up to 60m)
 


jerryRTD

Well-known member
You need to verify that the angle of elevation of the arrow is more than that required to hit the target How are you going to do that??? Remember some archers including my self use a high elbow draw which means that the draw hand height changes as the draw is made changing the angle of elevation of the arrow . simple is best the arrow going out side the overshoot has worked well for a long time.
 


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English Bowman

Well-known member
You need to verify that the angle of elevation of the arrow is more than that required to hit the target How are you going to do that??? Remember some archers including my self use a high elbow draw which means that the draw hand height changes as the draw is made changing the angle of elevation of the arrow . simple is best the arrow going out side the overshoot has worked well for a long time.
The same way it's been done in GNAS/AGB field for years, a judge watching. How can you tell if an arrow would go outside the overshoot? In my opinion it's the same method of judgement, but if you give an archer the benefit of the doubt over if an arrow will go over the target it'll land in the overshoot, but if you give the benefit of the doubt on if it's likely to clear the overshoot you're asking for trouble.

If I've misunderstood how you judge if an arrow will land inside the overshoot please explain how you can safely judge that?
 


Mark2

Member
So most people think this is a little too high?

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One rule for the elite... oh, and this is target, not flight.
What happens when the worlds are held in the UK? I can see a judge telling an international archer their draw is too high. I'd buy a ticket just for that.
 


bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
no... because the bow isn't drawn at that angle... would that arrow, if released at that point, even clear the 3m line?? Or the end of the longrod...??
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
It is always going to be a judgement call. Didn't have to look very far... 2/3 to 3/4 draw, probably 200-300m shot if the release failed and probably a lot lot further. Experienced compound flight archers could possibly call it better than I. I've put in an image showing 2/3 to 3/4 draw and full draw elevation. Having said that, you don't see many 'old school' draws like this any more. Many compounds draw horizontal and drop to the anchor position.
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KidCurry

Well-known member
So most people think this is a little too high?

View attachment 8203

One rule for the elite... oh, and this is target, not flight.
What happens when the worlds are held in the UK? I can see a judge telling an international archer their draw is too high. I'd buy a ticket just for that.
I think anyone starting a draw at this angle would find themselves in trouble in the UK. And it is quite clear the draw has started.
 


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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
If you imagine his eye line to the target, he will be unable to see past his bow hand. Easy enough for anyone to spot , never mind a judge.
And unnecessary, I feel.
 


bimble

Well-known member
Supporter
Fonz Awardee
Ironman
It is always going to be a judgement call. Didn't have to look very far... 2/3 to 3/4 draw, probably 200-300m shot if the release failed and probably a lot lot further. Experienced compound flight archers could possibly call it better than I. I've put in an image showing 2/3 to 3/4 draw and full draw elevation. Having said that, you don't see many 'old school' draws like this any more. Many compounds draw horizontal and drop to the anchor position.
View attachment 8205
View attachment 8206
And what is the overshoot of that range?? Because that is what is important in deciding if a draw is illegal or not.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
And what is the overshoot of that range??
Bimble, are you saying that the legality of the shot is dependent on how much over shoot is available at the range/venue in question? So if they had an overshoot of 600yds as opposed to the bare minimum of 150y.... then it would be legal.
 


English Bowman

Well-known member
Bimble, are you saying that the legality of the shot is dependent on how much over shoot is available at the range/venue in question? So if they had an overshoot of 600yds as opposed to the bare minimum of 150y.... then it would be legal.
And that's why JerryRTD's rule of "the arrow going out side the overshoot" is not simple or practical. The idea of the arrow never being aimed at a higher angle than that needed to hit the target is easy to see by watching the draw.
 


Kernowlad

Active member
I have 0.75 miles of overshoot in my garden. I’ve been told by some of the archery police that this isn’t enough.
I’m doing archery, not playing with ICBMs.
 


geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I would think that is enough distance for the overshoot. I wonder if the archery police are concerned about how visible that part of the "garden" is regarding spotting anyone in there wandering about.
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
And what is the overshoot of that range?? Because that is what is important in deciding if a draw is illegal or not.
Okay... no overshoot and people walking behind backstop. The Wroclaw 2015 had a back drop about 2m behind the 70m targets. Using the scale of the judge the backdrop is 4m high, and using 2/3rd draw at 13.5 degree elevation, an approximate speed of 200fps (at 2/3 draw) we get an arrow height of approx 10m at 85m and a 170m cast which is beyond the 140m safety area. This is well above the 4m backdrop. In fact the elevation would be greater as I used the aiming elevation as a baseline. Actual elevation would be 15.2 degrees giving a maximum arrow height of 13m at 90m distance and cast of 190m. Someone might want to check my maths :)
1592998516519.png 1592998644899.png1592998675009.png
The only real unknown here is initial arrow speed.
 


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geoffretired

Supporter
Supporter
I would imagine that the back drop has been calculated as being at least the equivalent of a maximum overshoot. Clear one and you'd likely clear both. With the sight on the top edge of the back drop. the overshoot would be close to maximum allowed. With the bow hand at the level of the top of the backdrop..........................!!
 


KidCurry

Well-known member
I would imagine that the back drop has been calculated as being at least the equivalent of a maximum overshoot. Clear one and you'd likely clear both. With the sight on the top edge of the back drop. the overshoot would be close to maximum allowed. With the bow hand at the level of the top of the backdrop..........................!!
Bow speed and elevation are the drivers. If I increase the bow speed to 300fps the distance goes up to nearly 390m. I could calculate the bow speed that brings the arrow to below 4m at 72m distance but it will take a while :) At a guess i would say it will be around 170fps at 13.5 degree elevation.
What would be really handy is to get some chrono speeds of arrows at 1/2 draw, 3/4 draw and full draw from a performance bow.
 


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KidCurry

Well-known member
In fact you would only need to be 5 degrees above horizontal at full draw (and 300fps) to get to 150m. 6 degrees elevation gets you to 177m :) You already need about 3.5 degrees to get to 90m so more than another 1.5 degrees gets you over the boss and out of the safety area if no back stop is used. That's not much of a margin if my maths is correct.
 


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English Bowman

Well-known member
Bow speed and elevation are the drivers. If I increase the bow speed to 300fps the distance goes up to nearly 390m. I could calculate the bow speed that brings the arrow to below 4m at 72m distance but it will take a while :) At a guess i would say it will be around 170fps at 13.5 degree elevation.
What would be really handy is to get some chrono speeds of arrows at 1/2 draw, 3/4 draw and full draw from a performance bow.
This is one of the things where I think that NFAS have a better rule than WA/AGB. With NFAS they have a maximum speed limit for the arrow, with WA they have a max poundage of 60lbs. With advances in technology a 60lbs bow can achieve over 300fps and that technology is advancing all the time.

As for the chono speed, that's an interesting point. My compound isn't a performance bow (An old Merlin) but I'll get some readings when I can get back to the club as I think that's an interesting point.
 


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